DNA marker x2a’j is probably the greatest DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon thus far.
X2a’j is not found in North America but its importance to Native American DNA is virtually unknown. It’s the 5‑ton elephant in the room that researcher’s geneticist do not want to talk about. Outside of the American continent it’s the most closely related genetic link to a founding Native American genetic DNA marker called haplogroup X. X2a’j is found in Iran. One would expect that if current theories about world migration and DNA dating are correct the closest genetic links to Native American haplogroup X would be in Siberia, East and central Asia. Haplogroup X DNA related to Native American haplogroup X is not found in these countries. Haplogroup X found in the Altains is not related to Native American haplogroup X.
The dating of haplogroup X is troublesome for the Book of Mormon but the geographical distribution of haplogroup X is spot on. Galilee Druze of Israel have the most genetic diversity of haplogroup X. It’s been proposed that this area in Israel is the place that haplogroup x dispersed from. For those who believe in the historical narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon the idea that Native American DNA dispersed from Israel matches the scriptural narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon. But the real question becomes why would the closest haplogroup X genetic link to Native of Americans be in Iran?
Borrowing from previous research the Bible and Book of Mormon explain as follows. The tribe of Manasseh which Lehi and Nephi are members of are invaded by the Assyrians and defeated and half of the tribe of Manasseh are deported.(2 Kings 17:6, 1Chronicles 5:26). In the final deportations of Manasseh, Sargon the II deports the northern tribes of Israel to the Assyrian empire which included Media known today as the northwest part of Iran. The Median tribes in 678BC made the first empire of Iran. With these deportations it’s also believed the dispersions of the lost ten tribes of Israel to the north begins.
2 Chronicles 30:1–11 explains that the Tribe of Manasseh was invited back to Jerusalem to worship back at the temple. 2 Kings 17:34 states that they no longer worshipped the God of Israel, most likely influenced by the Assyrian culture and beliefs provided by the Assyrians. Lehi ancestors very well could have been some of those invited back to Jerusalem and reconverted back to their ancestral Hebrew beliefs. Those who rebelled against Nephi such as Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael probably reverted back to pagan beliefs of Assyrian origin when they arrived in the promise land.
As to why this is the most concise DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon is twofold. There are cultural and DNA findings that match the Book of Mormon and Old Testament. The DNA and scriptural narrative is nothing without the cultural evidence displayed by Native American culture. I believe not only did Lehi bring Hebrew like culture but Laman and Lemuel or possibly the Mulekites brought over Assyrian pagan beliefs. The Nez Pierce Indians have the most concrete examples of Assyrian culture. The Mik Mak Indians have the best examples of Hebrew culture.
Ancient Mesopotamian Cuneiform tablets were found on Chief Joseph. Cuneiform dates back thousands of years to Mesopotamia, to what is now modern day Iraq. Assyrians also used a form of cuneiform. When Chief Joseph was asked where he got the tablets he said he received them from his forefathers. The tablet was translated as a bill of sale for animals.
This is an ancient Assyrian relief sculpture. The Assyrian God Asher sits on his throne. In front of him is a four-pointed star with a circle in the center. Radiating out from between the four points of the star are rays of light. The rays of light radiate out in three ribbons:
Assyrian Flag
The Assyrian flag is the flag chosen by the Assyrian people to represent the Assyrian nation in the homeland and in the diaspora.
Chief Joseph not only had Cuneiform tablets but his medicine bag has what appears to have the Assyrian Star of Ashur. The star in the middle has four points and what would be the three ribbons of light coming from the star.
“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade.”
NP 12397 is X2A’J. DNA proof explaining the mystery of Nez Pierce Indians having Assyrian culture is iron clad evidence in my unprofessional opinion. That Assyrian culture to include other old world culture thrived among North American Native Americans.
People have tried to explain away Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets with seemingly impossible explanations. But to try and explain the cultural, cuneiform tablets and supporting DNA evidence will take a supreme effort of mental gymnastics.
Critics will point out that Native American haplogroup X in North America is problematic it dates to between 11000–13000BC. Well before the Book of Mormon. This immediately disqualifies haplogroup X as DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon unless of course dating of Native American haplogroup X is incorrect. If critics are able to credibly explain away the Assyrian links and DNA evidence found in Iran then the dating of haplogroup X2a has a leg to stand on otherwise. Native American haplogroup X cannot be dated earlier then Assyrian culture which started around 3000BC. If you follow the scriptural narrative than Kennwick man should date after 550BC. At this point the only explanation for Native American Iran DNA and Assyrian culture is scripture.
Much like the mental gymnastics of calling a horse a tapir and other examples Mesoamerican apologetics were laughed to scorn for their hope in the most unlikeliest circumstances. Researches best bet at this point is to continue to ignore the DNA evidence and hope like Book of Mormon Mesoamerican apologist that DNA evidence in their favor will arise.
To see more cultural links to the old world see link.
42 responses to “X2A’J Bible and Book of Mormon DNA”
Bridgett Austin
I’d like to add to this discussion. Maybe these genes are from the giants and that’s why they are most similar to …I don’t know what I’m supposed to say here… white people. I know from my dreams of my past lives that there were giants that were white with red hair and curly beards. Large lamp-like blue eyes and I was a very tall man and only came up to around his waist. He lived on an island in around Ireland. His habitation was a large, circular woodwork and it was at the highest point. It was some kind of festival time around March and he seemed to be the presiding dignitary. The island was teeming with the locals who were of medium height, blond hair and blue eyes. I was not from around there and seemed much more urban and sophisticated. I Was very tall, thin and had green eyes and black hair. We were talking about this demon I was hunting and that’s why I had landed there in my ship. As we were walking around we noticed a child alone picking flowers I saw his eyes light on her and I knew he wanted to eat her. I quickly said this little girl has lost her mother and took her away quickly to find her negligent mother. While I was away the demon landed and the giant betrayed me and my plans. I got back in time to see his ship sailing off and boarded my ship and caught up with him. I brought my boat up alongside his and boarded. (They weren’t very large.) Facing him I drew my sword of polished steel it had a handle like Spanish fencing swords but was a broadsword. He was even taller and even thinner than I was with long straight hair like silver moonlight, alabaster white skin(I mean white!) and glowing blue eyes. He was also better looking than human men. He was also evil and to kill him I had to strike off his head. He stood facing me for a moment than smiled and turned and dove into the ocean. I dived in after like a fool, immediately realizing it was a trick and knowing then that giant had betrayed me. As I woke up from the dream I was aware of receding back to modern times and my current body. I remember ruefully mourning those boots I was wearing as they were masterfully made and with techniques lost to ancient history. I had another dream about that lifetime a day later in which I faced a sorcerer in the same area (Ireland or Scotland) and he had a tree hung with all the heads of warriors he had defeated. I remember seeing a head with long light blond hair hanging with the other 30 odd heads and his eyes were open and faintly glowing blue even though he was dead, he was a half demon and my friend. The evil sorcerer came down the hill from his tower. Literally just a tall tower. I put an end to him. You ever hear if you save someone’s life you are responsible for it? The child I saved is now my daughter and she has blond hair and blue eyes. Again. I was born with black hair. Again. I initially asked God in my mind if reincarnation was real one day when I was 16 and that night I had my first dream about another lifetime. I’m Cherokee, Scottish and French and have always believed in God. When I met my great uncle of my Cherokee grandfather for the first time he said he thought he knew me from a past life and I hadn’t told him who I was yet. Seems to me psychic abilities are passed through the blood. I live by the Ohio river and I have recently found out the mound builders were related to the Olmec and Mayans. Obviously, their chiefs and priests were giants. They interbred with the locals and their descendants are still here. My mother was 6’ft tall. We both have this bump/bone on the outsole of our feet and I can easily dislocate my jaw at will betraying my serpent bloodline. In fact, I found out the name of this area from a dream, the Valley of the Serpent Kings. We look nothing like the so-called Cherokee tribe of today. They look like Eskimo people to me. An awful lot of misinformation out there today and a lot of wannabe cult leader type shit going on, buy my book blah, blah, blah. The truth is free. Just ask God. Also, yes Jesus is who he said he was and the King James Bible is true and I’ve verified much through it. Still not sure where the black haired green eyed people came from originally and now there seems no place to really see that type except the French sometimes. Though obviously a great deal of people have scattered across the globe throughout time something I’ve come to know is that you reincarnate in the same bloodlines and see the same people again and again. That’s not to say only in one family as in my immediate past life I was a North Korean girl who lived to about ten and lived as a sex slave in a huge palace. I had a guard with pockmarks who was my lover and apparently was found out. (I had this dream on a vaction in New Orleans on my last night there) I saw him at an Atlanta gas station when I was seventeen the night after I had the dream. I just stared at him in disbelief and he looked straight at me and I could see how deeply unhappy he was but as I looked in his eyes, something happened. I think in his heart he knew who I was. Then my great-grandmother prodded me into the vehicle and that was that. The life before that I lived in this very same town and was a tall thin woman with, you guessed it, black hair and green eyes. The street she grew up on has my last name now and when I was trying to find the grave I asked God in my mind if this is real and the truth then give me a sign. I heard a crow cawing and stopped walking and looked down to see I was standing on the grave. I’ve also seen the future and the Chinese are going to invade us. I will be 12 and I will be here in this town from hell again. Most everyone will be dead and they will be stacking up the bodies and stripping the flesh off to eat it. I will be almost dead of starvation when I am found by a commander or General inspecting the mansion I am in. When the bomb dropped through the roof it didn’t detonate. Just killed my parents. Leaving me alone. I have feeling he is the same tyrant I escaped from my other life as a Korean girl. I will be his concubine and travel with him. The building the bodies were piled in in this dream was actuall built several years after I had this dream. It is a red cross building. It is down the road several miles from the grave of my former self and right down the street from a house I grew up in that has untouched woods for miles behind it and a creek that I found arrowheads and artifacts in as a child. I also saw ufos one time in broad daylight back there and had dreams of being taken underground and that there was an entrance to the underworld back there that only the ancient Indians knew about. I have since learned there are indeed caves and old mines right there that have since been closed up for like 130 years now. Old microfilm from the library showed an ad for a state park for this cave that was turned into a mine and some kind of accident led to them sealing the cave and apparently almost no one in town knows it even ever existed so I went out with the instruction from the old newspaper and located a little dead end road called,you guessed it, Cave Rd. God is funny. So many coincidences. Well, I hope that someone can learn something from my sharing this small portion of what I have learned. I used to tell people about these things as they happened but no one believes me or cares I guess. I’m a loner. I’m very good looking and intelligent but have done poorly in this life. The world is now teeming with witches and vile type people. Don’t they know how these stories always end? Really like the bible says they are as numerous as blades of grass. God, people used to be so much better looking and so much smarter! I will soon be leaving this body and it kind of makes me sad. Really I hoped I would find someone like me but I don’t think that is going to happen. All the same this is the truth like or not. David McKane, my grandpa Austin was a 33rd degree Scottish Free Rite Mason. He grew calbashes and hung them around his property. I later found out that is what witches do to give their different spirits a place to live. (À la decapitated heads on a tree) I also found a shirt of mine that was missing under the eave of his garage, I later learned witches do that to curse or even kill a person. When I was 9 I took a 14 foot drop to the head my life passed before my eyes and afterward I wouldn’t touch pork for some reason and around that time realized grandpa ate turkey bacon and grandma never ever cooked pork of anykind. You see, I now know it lowers your spiritual vibration. I hope you can leave this Mormon stuff behind you don’t waste yourself on lies. God’s people are not of this world or loved by it. Remember that. The fact is our bloodlines are almost all impure and this whole world is going to be destroyed by God, again, and we will be remade, again. I’m looking forward to it.
I’d love to hear more about your beliefs about carbon dating. You state that the X2AJ DNA has been dated through the Kennwick skeleton to a range from 3750 BC to 7000 BC. I understand that is a large range, however not even the youngest date in that range aligns with the Book of Mormon timeline.
You state that “Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables.” That is an important variable, and there is solid evidence indicating the levels of carbon dioxide (C12 and C14) in the atmosphere back at least 8000 years. By measuring the C12 and C14 in very old dead trees and counting the thousands of rings of those trees, along with the thousands of rings of recently alive trees, scientists have verified that radiocarbon is accurate within at least that period. After about 20,000 years, there is so little carbon left in previously organic objects that radiocarbon dating is not reliable — the measurement is essentially indistinguishable from background radiation. I of course cannot force you to accept the solid science of radiocarbon dating, but if you’d like somewhere to start to understand it better, I found a fairly easy to read summary (compared to many of the other more technical and boring sources) refuting many of the common critiques of radiocarbon dating: https://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating/.
Again, I would love to hear why exactly you don’t trust their variables, and what explanation you have for the very old radiocarbon dating results of, for example, the Kennwick man.
At this point in time I think the DNA evidence and cultural evidence is a more accurate representation of dating then what radio carbon dating is showing.
Ok, so to clarify, you are willfully disregarding strong evidence that discredits your hypothesis, just because you don’t like it? You are cherry-picking the evidence that coincidentally supports your position and ignoring all the evidence that doesn’t.
Your hypothesis is consistently not credible because it is based on cherry-picking what supports your position rather than considering all the evidence for and against your position. You can cherry-pick evidence in any culture and make incredible claims. Symbols like your “Assyrian flag” are, in my opinion, the most likely coincidental matches.
Take for example, the Jewish “Star of David” — it is supposed evidence that “The Jews and all modern religious traditions originated in ancient India” according to this article: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread812295/pg1. My point being that the use of similar symbols is not generally considered evidence of the same origin. I think we’ve all doodled something similar to the design on Chief Joseph’s medicine bag, just because it is a fairly simple pattern that can spontaneously occur, just like the Star of David symbol.
Tying it back to the DNA evidence you present, all together it shows that there are a variety of migrations from other continents. That specifically refutes the Book of Mormon claims like 2 Nephi 1:6 and 9 that “there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord” and that “[Nephi’s family] may possess this land unto themselves”. The only DNA evidence that one of the many migrations may have been from a middle-eastern group (like Lehi’s family) has strong evidence that it was from thousands of years prior to the Lehi story. This means it is no longer credible evidence that supports your hypothesis. Your claims are similar to those claiming dinosaurs and humans coexisted because of an ancient human drew a picture of a dinosaur-like creature: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread740987/pg1. Such conclusions are based purely on ignoring multitudes of contrary scientific evidence and exalting likely incidental similarities as evidence. This is cherry-picking at its worst, and I hope eventually you can see that ( https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/65/Cherry-Picking ).
Please do explain, why do you find it at all ethical to support your claims with such blatant cherry-picking?
I have to go with the scientific evidence that is most accurate when they conflict with each other. As you stated there were multiple migrations to the Americas. But migrations do not fit the terminology very well. There were multiple trans ocean voyages. To include a Polynesian, Australian, and most definitely a middle eastern voyage all three of those dna markers are found in the Americas. The middle east marker found among North American Indians. The dna evidence is supportive of some Asian haplo groups making it to the Americas via ocean voyages. Certain Asian haplogroups are missing in key areas to show a migration across a barren ice bridge. Some of the Asian haplo groups being absent are in modern day and paleo Eskimos. The biggest argument that once was against the Book of Mormon in terms of DNA is now its biggest defense ironic I know. What the problem is dna evidence conflicts with the dating of Haplo Group x and other Haplo groups, unless of course cave men were sailing across the oceans. Another example and mystery is that there was a migration to Australia 40000 years ago. Last time I checked Australia was an island. I’m going with the dna evidence its supported by cultural evidence. Scientist need to make the variables with radio carbon dating match up with cultural and dna evidence. They changed the first dating of Kennwick man by 3450 years. That same number used in the opposite direction falls well within the Book of Mormon timeline.
The Book of Mormon mentions three migrations to North America. For those voyages not mentioned in the Book of Mormon I think it’s safe to assume God had his hand in it. The Assyrian timeline falls within the Book of Mormon. What I found out recently is that Chief Joseph Cuneiform tablet specifically names the moon Goddess nanna. I wrote in my Hebrew and Cultural links that I believed the crescent shape objects found in prehistory archeological sites and worn by early Native Americans was an Assyrian moon God Sin. Doing more research sin was the incorrect god the correct god is the moon goddess Nanna. Chief Joseph had on his medicine bag an Assyrian star of Ashur. His medicine bag probably had the cuneiform tablet that mentions one of the gods they and their ancestors worshipped Nanna. Inna another god that Assyrians worshipped is on the Shawnee creek stone. The cultural and dna evidence all match up. It conflicts by thousands of years with current dating of middle eastern dna arrival to America.
The reasoning for this belief is that archeologist were surprised that Hopewell (Nephites) had virtually no crescent shaped artifacts. While other non Hopewell sites had numerous crescent shaped artifacts. I will have to add this later. Sargon II who deported the tribe of Manasseh to the Assyrian Empire specifically worshipped the Assyrian god Nanna. His daughters were made the priestess of this crescent shaped God. Also one researcher describes the name nanna as being specially to the Assyrian culture.
In the almost 200 years the church has never stopped growing year after year. Rates of those growth have spiked then fallen but growth has always been constant and it continues to grow. Some countries have excellent growth rates.
The same haplogroup X found in living Native Americans was present in Native American populations that lived 8,000 years ago. This fact demonstrates your claims are false.
If this is the same simon we have discussed this topic before so I will repost my reply. The radio carbon dating of haplo group x comes through kennwick man.
When it comes to dating Kennewick man a skeleton with Haplogroup x dna he dated to 9000 BP (7000BC) after several attempts. Kennwick man has been dated to 3750BC, 6410BC, 4130BC, and 6130BC. Those are some wide ranges. In my unprofessional and biased opinion the scientist based on their own biases kept dating Kennewick man until they got the date they wanted. Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables. I believe the old world (Hebrew) language and culture and technology found among the Hopewell Adena and Native Americans is a better indication of age. Not to mention there is no dna evidence for a Bering Ice Bridge crossing not only for Haplo group x but other Haplo groups. See technology and Hebrew culture ties that I believe show correct dating.
I believe that the solutrean and Bering ice bridge for the populating of the America continent to be false. But the solutrean has more dna evidence for it than the Bering ice bridge theory. But your right the majority of scientist consider the solutrean theory to be unacceptable.
Here are some previously posted comments about radio carbon dating and holes in the Bering Ice Bridge theory.
“Although hgs A, B, C, D, and X are the five founding mtDNA haplogroups in the Americas, previous studies have shown the near-absence of hgs B, C, and X in Paleo-Eskimos and Thule, as well as among present-day Inuit (25, 43–47).”
Besides the dna evidence I’m using the Hebrew cultural ties and technology to prove the biblical timeline crossing. As far as the technology the woven cloth clothing, metallurgy, breastplates, and fortresses is confirmed by modern archaeological evidence. DNA evidence is also causing problems for the Bering Ice Bridge THEORY. It was first believed there was one migration 50000 thousand years ago. Then it changed to three migrations about 20000 thousand years ago and now scientist believe that haplo group x crossed (for which there is no evidence for) 13000 years ago.
No they are adding more migrations than just three.
“Therefore, an additional Paleo-Eskimo migration wave should be added to the three-wave hypothesis in explaining the peopling of the Americas”
South America has Polynesian dna. So some scientist believe Polynesians sailed to South America. To say that they sailed to South America prior to 12000 bc would be absurd.
South America has Australian dna but there is no Australian found in Asia or Siberia or the Near East.
Did chief Joseph live in North America or Central America ? One wonders where the Book of Mormon people lived since we have Book of Mormon tours in Central America
There are two major theories of thought of where the Book of Mormon took place Central America and North America. You can take Book of Mormon tours not only in Central America but also North America.
Molly Most people believe that confirmed Book of Mormon like artifacts such as breastplates headplates, woven cloth, metal weapons, necklaces, buttons, etc that are all confirmed Book of Mormon time period is all great evidence. The north American model has archeological sites and artifacts.
Artifact evidence is generally known as evidence believe it or not.
Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob So of course the Book of Mormon not true
“The Gods who dwell in the Heaven…have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state.…they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.” (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)
Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613–614,… Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone.
“God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.)
It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334
Doctrine and Covenant’s 132: 20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
Dave Mack
I don’t know if this is the right forum to discuss your comment but what the heck might as well.
The bible teaches the same thing that man can be exalted and become like Heavenly Father. Look at Jesus Christ, he was once a mortal being who is now an exalted being.
Psalms 82:6 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Christ quotes himself. John 10:34 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Christ was not perfect until after his mortal existence he learned from that which he suffered. After his resurrection only then was he perfect. Luke 13:32 Hebrew 5:8,9
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Christ tells the people to be perfect like Heavenly father he does not include himself. After his resurrection and perfection he tells the Nephites to be perfect like himself and Heavenly Father. Mathew 5:28 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 3Nephi 12:48 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.
I could add more scriptures but I do not have all day to look up all the verses I think you get the jest of what the Bible is saying but I could add a lot more just let me know.
Dave Mack
Molly,
I was just going by what the bible says. If you want to disagree with bible feel free.
James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is notabout becoming gods. “In Psalm 82:6,judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture theSavior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges soauthorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exaltedtitle ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16;7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of Godtransmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency ofcalling human judges ‘gods,’ and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ whocalled Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but fortheir sin-darkened minds.” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). –Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30–34 to show thatwe can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian,perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle
tapirrider
“People have tried to explain away Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets with seemingly impossible explanations.”
The Smithsonian Magazine of February, 1979 gives very plausible explanations. David, just because the tablet is authentic does not prove that Chief Joseph ever even owned it or had it in his possession. Edgar James Banks brought perhaps thousands of those items into the United States and sold them, long after the Battle of Bear Paw. The first time the tablet showed up was at West Point in a box of items labeled as Chief Joseph’s belongings. It is most likely and the best plausible explanation, that the tablet had been purchased in the early 20th Century from Banks and ended up with those other items, either before they were donated or the museum itself screwed up and misplaced and mislabled one of its own artifacts.
When a rational person considers that your DNA claim is flawed and has studied the geometric patterns of American Indian art and beadwork and is familiar with the cultural significance and meanings of the patterns and their uses by the various different tribes, your entire claim collapses with the reality that the tablet was a common item in the early 20th century United States. It is obvious to anyone who is looking for truth without bias that the source of the tablet was from Banks and Chief Joseph never had it.
The individual who donated the items to the West Point museum was Stuart Heintzelman, who obtained them from his father Charles Stuart Heintzelman. They were donated in the early 20th century. And just a little bit of thought makes the question scream out, why would Chief Joseph give such a sacred object to General Miles? Deloria’s source was Mary Gindling.
There is no 19th century account of Chief Joseph having that tablet, no account of him giving it to anyone. All of this garbage began with Mary Gindling, based on a mix-up of museum objects. And Mary’s writing was after Barry Fell’s first publication of America BC and he never mentioned it. So in conclusion, just because an artifact is authentic, it does not authenticate pseudo claims. The most plausible explanation is almost always the truth and in this case, it is a common object that was brought in to the United States after the events of the Nez Percé.
Given the Native American cultural and DNA ties to Iran and the ancient Assyrian empire. I have no problem believing that the authentic cuneiform tablet was given to chief Joseph by his forefathers who are genetically tied to Iran.
David, there is no credible cultural ties of the Nez Percé to Iran and your DNA claims are not in agreement with science. And given that there is no 19th evidence via photograph or written document tying that tablet to Chief Joseph, all you have is a belief with no backing. Your faith is admirable but in this case it would seem misguided.
No David, your alleged cultural evidence is not credible. My position is not a matter of denial, nor is it a problem I have. The facts and evidence simply do not support your claims. I can back up my position with reliable, credible and reputable sources, while you must twist the findings and conclusions of scientists, archaeologists and scholars to fit your ideas. You have to disregard radiocarbon dates that disagree with your claims and ignore the improvements in the molecular clock measurement. It is a fact that you use known hoax artifacts and you have tried to attribute that valid artifact tablet from Mesopotamia to Chief Joseph when there is no evidence that he actually ever had it, and you do this in the face of all indications that it entered the United States in the early 1900s.
Denial is refusing to acknowledge credible evidence, refusing to accept that lack of evidence to support a claim indicates that one’s position might actually be wrong, disputing and disagreeing with the established consensus without valid or credible grounds to stand on, and allowing one’s own bias and desire for something to be true to interfere with accepting reality. My problem is just the opposite. I cannot allow myself to believe in fantasy, no matter how badly I might want to.
Dave Mack
Well there you go again trying to white wash all the artifacts confirmed by modern archeology. You have your opinion I have mine the reader can make their own opinion.
tapirrider
David, I am not “trying to white wash” anything. My position is not an opinion, it is based on credible evidence and facts, in line with the established consensus of scientists, archaeologists, anthropologists, historians and educators. The claims that you present are in error and entirely unnecessary concerning the Book of Mormon. If Moroni 10:3–5 can’t establish the truth then no amount of distorted claims will either.
Dave Mack
The Book of Mormon can definitely hold its own nobody can disprove it. Its ability to draw people to Christ is witnessed by millions from its first publication.
As far as my hobby there are plenty of scientist and anthropologist who have noticed that dna distribution and current theories are not lining up.
“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory. “ “If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich. “ “Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia. “ “Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.” “There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”
The Book of Mormon isn’t holding its own anymore though. Conversion rates are at an all time low, retention of new converts is extremely problematic and even long time members from multigenerational families are leaving. Estimates of active members world wide come in at only about 5 million. The majority of those active members are in Utah and surrounding regions. The outlook is dismal. Pseudo claims like yours, Meldrum’s, Wayne May’s, along with FairMormon’s divisive claims of two Cumorahs and Mesocamerican limited geography do not help. In fact they hurt because rational, educated, thinking individuals can quickly see that a hoax scripture can only be propped up with more distortions. This situation is sad but true. When I finally realized that the Book of Mormon was not what I had been taught and that the things I had taught in LDS classes through many years were not true or real, I was devastated. It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to face. David, if you want to help people, please stop distorting science and archaeology. Please stop presenting a fantasy interpretation of science.
Although the church is not growing as fast as it use to its still growing. In some areas of the world its growing at an accelerated pace. Some day whether in this life or the next you will come to realize truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
tapirrider
David, I know that the Book of Mormon is not true. My death will not make a work of fiction real for me in some pretend “next” life. And with that knowledge I also know that claims about American Indians based on the Book of Mormon are not only false, they are part of the racism that I now speak out against. Please stop putting that ridiculous label of Caucasian onto some of the most beautiful people in the world who need to be seen and understood for who they really are. Stop robbing American Indian’s contributions to the world by trying to claim that their ancestors were Caucasians. Their real ancestors deserve full credit, but your fantasy history doesn’t grant that to them. Its time for me to end my communication with you because quite honestly, your twists and distortions of science, archaeology and American Indian cultures makes my head hurt. If you come to a point where you want to live in the real world, shoot me an email.
“What does the Bible mean by ‘you are gods’ / ‘ye are gods’ in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?”
Answer: Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8.
This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.
The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.
Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25–30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34–36)?
In contrast, we have the serpent’s lie to Eve in the Garden. His statement, “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5), was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men can be thought of as gods; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods” or “little gods.” We are not God. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.
Even James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.
“In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges ‘gods,’ and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds.” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). — Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30–34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
Tapir No I think you should take it up with scientist.
“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population” (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001) “To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 9707616292 “Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor” “The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1) “Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.” (The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?) “To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?) Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe (National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”) On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of “Caucasian” alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of ‑30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%. (mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)
The Book of Mormon isn’t holding its own anymore though. Conversion rates are at an all time low, retention of new converts is extremely problematic and even long time members from multigenerational families are leaving. Estimates of active members world wide come in at only about 5 million. The majority of those active members are in Utah and surrounding regions. The outlook is dismal. Pseudo claims like yours, Meldrum’s, Wayne May’s, along with FairMormon’s divisive claims of two Cumorahs and Mesocamerican limited geography do not help. In fact they hurt because rational, educated, thinking individuals can quickly see that a hoax scripture can only be propped up with more distortions. This situation is sad but true. When I finally realized that the Book of Mormon was not what I had been taught and that the things I had taught in LDS classes through many years were not true or real, I was devastated. It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to face. David, if you want to help people, please stop distorting science and archaeology. Please stop presenting a fantasy interpretation of science.
tapirrider
David, your use of the word Caucasian is outdated and racist. Even worse, the context you use it in is that ancient white people in America accomplished the greatest things but were destroyed by non-Caucasians. That theme is downright racist, scientifically false and morally condemnable.
The LDS church is making efforts to water down and remove the racism of skin color. White now means pure, not skin color as explained in the LDS essays and even in official curriculum materials. But here comes Dave, parading out Caucasian and claiming that haplogroup x is a genetic marker for it, using it to identify white as a genetic distinctiveness as evidence for proof of the Book of Mormon. This garbage from Dave is sick and racist. And like all others who do this kind of thing, he resorts to the most extreme pseudo claims such as ancient giants mixing with people, use of known hoax artifacts and the concept that white is superior. There really is no place for this in the 21st century and most importantly, when addressing matters of American Indians. This wouldn’t stand for one minute if it was about Blacks, but when it comes to American Indians, one of the realities of racism against them is that things like this are still considered acceptable by the ignorant and uninformed and Dave just keeps right on doing it.
Here are the sources Dave uses that refer to Haplogroup x as Caucasian:
All of the above articles using the word Caucasian are in fact in a different context that Dave’s use of it. The scientists are not claiming migrations to the Americas during timelines of the Bible or Book of Mormon, they are acknowledging the radiocarbon dating and molecular clock measurements dating back to the Pleistocene. This makes Dave’s use of it in the context of recent migrations even more racist.
It is also important to realize that Dr. Chatters identified Kennewick man as Caucosoid because of the skull shape, and he argued that Kennewick man was not ancestral to American Indians. But Dr. Chatters changed his mind after studying an even more ancient skull in Mexico, and this was before the final, conclusive DNA studies of Kennewick man that directly ties him to living American Indians.
Here is some further reading on why the use of the word Caucasian is inappropriate:
Dave, I’m taking this up with you because society has already taken it up with scientists and it is no longer considered appropriate and is not found in credible, current publications. You are the one doing it here and I’m trying to inform and educate you on why this is wrong. Deflecting it back to older publications from scientists who no longer do this is not going to get you out of the hot seat.
Dave Mack
I will rephrase the work of scientist and geneticist so Tapir will not get offended. According to research by scientist and geneticist Native American Haplo group x a rare founding dna marker is a white dna marker. I think tapir will find that more palatable.
“The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlotsand publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dressand grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concernfor status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism…the haircutbecomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules byappearances.” Hugh Nibley Approaching Zion Vol 9
tapirrider
David, it isn’t about me getting offended or what I find palatable. I gave you plenty of information to read and explained how what you are doing is wrong. You don’t seem to get it so goodbye. I don’t have any more patience with your nonsense.
Dave Mack
Tapir
I have enjoyed our discussions I wish you the best
Dave Mack
Its a great quote by Hugh Nibley quoting the master. He could not be more right.
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