Haplogroup X a Middle East and European DNA marker found in North America
Haplogroup X in DNA distribution matches Hopewell and Book of Mormon migration, expanse and trade system
Legend of Fu Sang Chinese knowledge of the North American continent
Haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X are found among the Indians of the American continents. Haplogroups A, B, C, and D can be explained as coming from Asia, but not haplogroup X, which is only found in North American Indians. Other North, Central, and South American Indians show the Haplogroups A, B, C, and D. Haplogroup X is not found in Asia, it is found in Israel, Europe and North America specifically the Great lakes region by New York State. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)
Scientists believe that haplogroup X crossed the Bering Ice Bridge sometime around 12000 and 30000 years ago. That belief is problematic because there is no DNA evidence trail that haplogroup X crossed the Bering land bridge. Applying the same reasoning that critics use to conclude that DNA disproves the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica, you would also conclude that haplogroup X did not cross the Bering land bridge. There is no Native American haplogroup X DNA found in Siberia, East Asia, or the west coast of America, and it is completely absent in Central and South America. When looking at the haplogroup X DNA distribution map notice that it is not found in East Asia but in Europe and the Middle East. There is a small group of haplogroup X found in the Altaians of south Siberia but this subgroup of haplogroup X is not related to North American Indians and their arrival in the Altaians is after the Bering Ice Bridge would not have been crossable.
“Third, the few Altaian (Derenko et al. 2001) and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia” Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X
What also makes haplogroup X interesting is that it is a European. Caucasian DNA marker. The Caucasian part is important to keep that in mind as you read the quotes about Native American traditions and stories.
“Haplogroup X is remarkable in that it has not been found in Asians, including Siberians”
“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population” (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”
“The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1)
“Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.” (The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
Another problem with the Bering Ice bridge theory is that Polynesian DNA is found in South America. The idea that Polynesians migrated across the Bering Ice Bridge is ridiculous.
“Researchers mapped similarities in genes, mutations and random pieces of DNA of Central and South American tribes with other groups. Warmer colors indicate the strongest affinities.” (Pontus Skoglund, Harvard Medical School).
From the map below notice the lack of Asian pockets of DNA that correspond to South America in Siberia and East Asia. But the larger concentrations found in the tropical and warmer climates of South Asia. Why would any group of people migrate to the arctic subzero temperatures of Siberia and North East Asia from tropical and temperate climates? Comparatively very few people live in these arctic climates the reason why these locations are inhospitable to human life. There are large concentrations of the mentioned DNA found in South American but notice the particular DNA samples being shown as evidence is not found in what is now America and only one location in Canada. This evidence would suggest transoceanic voyages to South America. Below are quotes from articles and research papers questioning the Bering Ice bridge theory:
“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory.”
“If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich.”
“Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia.”
“Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.”
“There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”
Another valuable point in showing inconsistencies of the Bering land bridge theory is the Clovis/fluted spear point from Europe. This type of stone projectile is believed to have been brought from the European continent to North America via Bearing Ice Bridge. This spear point is found in Europe and North America but not found in Siberia or East Asia. How was this spear point brought to North America across the Bearing land bridge if it’s not found in Siberia and East Asia? Clovis spear points are found in plentiful supply east of the Rocky Mountains but in such areas as Alaska and the Aleutians where there should also be evidence showing this supposed crossing there are a few spots in Alaska most likely brought from movement from the east coast. But nothing in the way of evidence showing a land migration in Alaska or the Aleutians or East Asia or Siberia.
I believe it can be shown that haplogroup X and or the Jaredites are inexorably linked to this type of stone projectile. The Clovis people are believed to have caused the extinction of at least 25 genera of indigenous land mammals found in North America. To include horses, cattle, goats, and mammoths (elephants) all animals listed in the Book of Mormon. If the Jaredites brought over the Clovis spear point which I believe they did the Nephites and Lamanites eventually adopted this type of spear point. Major stumbling blocks to the historicity of the Book of Mormon can be shown to be false. I can only assume based on the evidence the current dating of the Clovis people is wrong and the Clovis point was used and arrived with the Jaredites. The current theory that this point arrived via the Bering land bridge without evidence proves this theory is in need of reexamination. That can be said of world migrations to the American continent also. The Clovis spear point map in my opinion is also indicative of the battles between Nephites and Lamanites fought in North America.
Originally the Bering Ice Bridge states that there was a single migration as far back as 30000 years ago. But population expansion of North America and diverse culture and linguistics populations found in North and South America prove against this. Now theorist are exploring the idea of two and maybe more migrations. I believe this is just the beginning of more theories to come. If attention can be turned to holes found in the Bering Ice Bridge theory I believe theories that include trans-oceanic voyages from Asia to the American continent will be unavoidable.
Scientists have used Anzick‑1 to show a genetic link between Siberia and North America, but there are a couple problems with this hypothesis. Anzwic‑1 is haplogroup D not X. It does not explain how haplogroup X arrived in North America. Based on genetic distribution haplogroup X and D, haplogroup X is more closely associated to the large concentration of Clovis and fluted points found on the east coast of America of which haplogroup D is almost completely absent from. Also, what would appear to be the founding populations based on the high concentrations of haplogroup D is found in central and South America – it’s not found on the west coast of North America or in Alaska. The physical evidence leads me to believe that haplogroup D arrived by trans-oceanic voyages to Central and South America.
“When Columbus reached the Americas in 1492, Native American occupation stretched from the Bering Strait to Tierra del Fuego, Torroni explained. Those native populations encompassed extraordinary linguistic and cultural diversity, which has fueled extensive debate among experts over their interrelationships and origins. “ (First Americans arrived as 2 separate migrations, according to new genetic evidence)
The DNA and Clovis spear points not found in Siberia and East Asia brings the bearing Ice bridge theory to a halt. But there is also a large amount of evidence disproving the timeline of a 15000BC to 30000BC timeline. The evidence will show there are certain North American Indian tribes that have Hebrew beliefs, linguistics, artifacts, technology and culture that date to biblical times and not to 15000BC which would predate these technologies and beliefs. A great example are the Hopewell and Adena Indians these cultures had an advanced metallurgy to include copper breastplates, copper and silver Jewelry, meteoric iron tools and weapons. The Hopewell and Adena had woven cloth and buttons. The Hopewell had an advanced trade system that stretched for thousands of miles with a highway system. It’s also worth noting that civilizations that had metallurgy, woven cloth and advanced trade system also had a written language. The oldest Hopewell archeological site is found in Florida at 500BC these Indians disappeared around 400 AD in the Great Lakes region. These technologies, cultural and linguistic ties show that haplogroup X arrived during biblical times by ship and not 12000BC to 30000BC through an arctic land migration.
The Hopewell Indians have haplogroup X DNA. The Adena culture end also matches the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell timeline geography and technology matches the Book of Mormon perfectly and makes them the perfect civilization to be the Nephites.
Haplogroup X DNA distribution is found on the east coast of America with the highest concentration found in the Great Lakes and Canada region. It’s not found in South and Central America and very little on the west coast of America. General world migration theory is that populations would follow the coast line we do not see this with haplogroup X. Scientist have point out dating of haplogroup X entry has been uncertain. Studies have shown population expansion of haplogroup X as stated by scientist happened during biblical times. One would assume that if haplogroup X arrived as late as 12000BC population expansion would have happened much earlier than what the current the evidence shows. Some scientist have theorized that haplogroup X crossed 3000 miles over ice from Europe to America across the Atlantic Ocean during the last ice. This theory is called the Solutrean theory and haplogroup X distribution and Clovis spear points are used as evidence. The theory that groups of people crossed over 3000 miles of frozen Atlantic Ocean ice is hard to swallow for the vast majority of scientist and this theory is not accepted. Any dating of haplogroup X by carbon dating past 6000 BC I believe is incorrect because of the evidence that will be provided and the environmental, uncertain atmospheric conditions of millennial dates, and variable inputs needed for carbon dating and biases of researchers.
The point of this is that theories of the populating of the American continent is fraught with holes. I believe DNA, cultural, and linguistic evidence will show that the American continent was populated through trans-oceanic voyages by ships versus land migrations in artic temperatures across barren ice. A view of geographical locations of South American DNA found in Asia has many locations in South Asia with fairly close proximity to the ocean suggesting ocean these voyages. The Book of Mormon states that there were three trans-oceanic migrations by ship, Lehi’s family, the Mulekites and the Jaredites. Polynesian DNA the legend of Fu sand and the Book of Mormon is all evidence that the Populating of North American was done by ship and not on artic land masses.
“The timing of initial entry into the Americas is uncertain. Through use of estimates of mtDNA diversity and rates of mtDNA evolution, a broad range of dates (11,000–43,000 years BP) have been estimated (Torroni et al. 1994; Bonatto and Salzano 1997a; Lorenz and Smith 1997; Stone and Stoneking 1998). Although researchers have recognized the need to incorporate population history in their estimates, the wide range of dates reported in the literature for the peopling of the Americas suggests that accurate models of Native American population history, accurate models of the evolution of mtDNA, and sufficient sampling of populations in the Americas have not yet emerged.”
As will be shown in the essay North American Indians have beliefs that match the Book of Mormon perfectly. To include that Cherokee and Iroquois killed off a white race of Indian, certain Indian tribes sailed to North America and beliefs of written characters and letters. They had a lost gospel taken away from them, beliefs of a flood and Christ-like appearance. They also have Hebrew like language and culture and temple practices. Based on their own beliefs and traditions the Cherokee and Iroquois make up the primary tribes to be the Lamanites. The Micmac Indians based on the writings of Father Chretian Le Clercq are most likely to have been direct descendants of the Nephites.
Below I have added some quotes about Indian beliefs, culture and language. The quotes and evidence provided is a small sampling and just begins to scratch the surface out of the many books that have been written about the American Indians. To make the statement that there is no DNA, archeological, cultural and linguistic evidence to support the Book of Mormon is completely false the opposite is true. The quotes below come from today’s anthropologist. And the 19th 18th 17th century books are used by historians to write the history of the North American Indians. Some people might find using these sources as troublesome. But when it comes to exploring the beliefs culture and traditions of the American Indians the older the source the better due to the systematic destruction of the Native American way of life in the 18th, 19th and 20th century. One will also notice that statements made will be supported by multiple sources some from different countries and time spans.
Haplogroup X Distribution
Haplogroup X distribution matches the historical record given in the Book of Mormon and Bible. According to the Heartland Model Lehi and his family landed somewhere between the Florida Panhandle and Mississippi. Nephi and his family immediately separated from Laman and went into the wilderness. The Seed of Nephi would most likely be the Caucasian DNA marker of haplogroup X and Laman’s seed would have mixed with the Asian ethnic tribes of that area and era. In the Book of Mormon it states that the Nephites constantly had to move North because their traditional lands south were being over taken by the Lamanites. The Nephites also had an extensive trade system that included the use of horses and chariots. We can see from the map that haplogroup X reached to and beyond the Rocky Mountains. That matches the statements that Joseph Smith made about Zelph that he was known from the Rocky Mountains to the eastern see (Lake Ontario). If the Hopewell Indians are the Nephites we know that the extensive trade system of the Hopewell’s reached to the Rocky Mountains to Lake Ontario and beyond as shown in the haplogroup X map. Hagoth sailed across the West Sea with over 5000 men women and children and he made this voyage twice. The west sea is most likely Lake Michigan. Hagoth would have populated what is now Canada. Hagoth’s seed for the most part could have avoided the Nephite genocide which happened in the Great Lakes area and would account for the largest concentration of haplogroup X in Canada. I know that prophets and apostles made statements that Hagoth sailed to the Polynesian Islands. I believe this to be incorrect. I believe they made these statements based on opinion and the knowledge and accepted theories of that day. Prophets and apostles opinions have been wrong before about inconsequential and controversial topics such as the idea that blacks would never receive the Priesthood and that men lived on the moon.
As far as the Europe and Middle East distribution goes we know that Manasseh and his seed were in Egypt, Persia, and then went north to what is believed by traditional accounts of the Lost Ten Tribes moving north. Each geographical location mentioned in the Bible and Book of Mormon is accounted for from the origination point of haplogroup X and its move north into Europe. One research paper has pointed out that the Galilee Druze of Israel have the most diversity and the highest concentration of Haplogroup X found on the European and Eurasian continent.
“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”
“We found that 39 of 41 haplogroup X Druze individuals were from the Galilee heights (Table S2), corresponding to 21.4% (39÷182) of the samples from that region. Enrichment analysis revealed that both X1 and X2 were highly enriched in this region”
The highest concentrations in the world of haplogroup X is found in the Israeli Galilee Druze at 27%. The North American Indians specifically the Ojibwa have the second highest concentration of haplo group x in the world. Haplogroup X is found in Europe in single digits. This match to the Bible and Book of Mormon is quite remarkable. If haplogroup X traveled with haplogroup A, B, C and D across Asia to North America, why do Ojibwa have the second highest concentration? It’s remarkable that a tribe in North America has almost the same concentration of haplogroup X in Israelis. This represents to me a recent and distinct voyage to the new world probably around 600BC. I believe it also shows that the Ojibwa in particular did not intermarry or populate with the other haplogroups already in the Americas. Haplogroup X is distinct from other haplogroups in every way.
The Book of Mormon points out two distinct civilizations that had metallurgy and woven cloth. The North American continent during the Book of Mormon timeline had two cultures and only two cultures that match this description: the Hopewell and Adena. The timeline given by the Book of Mormon matches the Hopewell culture and the end of the Adena culture. DNA distribution of the European and North American continent is also a match. There is absolutely no way that Joseph Smith could have known about the timelines and DNA distribution of these two cultures.
Asian Ethnic Tribes
The Asian ethnic tribes came from the west on the other hand the Great Lake Indians said they sailed here from another country to America from the east. “On the contrary, their traditions inform us that they came from the west that they crossed the Mississippi, and that they gradually travelled towards the east, “When you ask them,” says Lawson, speaking of the Carolina-Indians, ” whence their Fore-fathers came, that first inhabited the country, they will point to the Westward and say. Where the Sun sleep, our Fore-fathers came thence As far as my inquiries have extended, all the Indian nations on this side of the Mississippi assert, that they traveled from the west, from the northwest, or from the south. Many of them speak of their travel across the Mississippi. The Natchez informed Du Pratz, that before they came into the country east of the Mississippi, they dwelt nearly in the south-west, “under the sun” The Muskohge, or Creeks, assert that they crossed the Mississippi about the time that the army of Soto rambled through Florida. || The Chikkasah have told me, that they formerly lived to the west of the Mississippi and that they relinquished that country in obedience to a dream, in which they were advised to leave their western establishment and to go to the country where the sun rises.” (Barton 1798 pg. XCII)
Fu Sang
How did the Asian ethnic tribes arrive in North America? A belief that they crossed the Bering ice bridge 30000 years ago goes against the idea that some believers hold that human life began with Adam and Eve 4000 years ago and against DNA evidence. I find the legend of Fu Sang an acceptable alternative vs the Bering land bridge theory. The legend of Fu Sang is that the Chinese sailed to America. The evidence used for this are Chinese style anchors found off the coast of California, legends describing gigantic trees (redwoods found in California) from a new land. Marco Polo is also used as evidence for Fu Sang. There is a 14th century goat skin map that shows what looks like the coast of Alaska what is believed to be passed down from Marco Polo to his posterity.
David, you have obviously done a lot of work on this and I applaud you for it. However, it does look a bit like you are being a little choosy about the data you cite or that at minimum you are going one conclusion beyond your data. That may be unfair of me to say since I don’t have the scientific foundation to intelligently value your sources nor the time to investigate each of them at length.
So far though, the sources I have read don’t appear to draw the same conclusion you do. The Wikipedia article on Haplogroup X that you reference at the top of this page discusses no special connection between the Druze and Native American populations and instead focuses on the Altai people as the “best available candidate for the ancestral source region for the Native American population system”. Further, while describing the Solutrean hypothesis, it references a study from 2008 that draws the following conlusion:
“Native American populations exhibit almost exclusively five mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups (A–D and X). Haplogroups A–D are also frequent in Asia, suggesting a northeastern Asian origin of these lineages. However, the differential pattern of distribution and frequency of haplogroup X led some to suggest that it may represent an independent migration to the Americas. Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models.”
From my layman’s perspective, their results sound like strong evidence against any multi-migration hypothesis for haplogroup X. What is your response to those results?
Finally, do you know of any peer-reviewed papers that find a direct see a Druze source for the introduction of haplogroup X in North America?
Noah I’m going to repeat much of what I have already stated. From the studies that I have done the most recent dna research has pointed to several migrations to the American continent. I believe the majority of anthropologist agree with the theory that their were multiple migrations as dna analysis seems to show this. For example I don’t think any researcher based on current dna analysis believes the Polynesian, Australian, Haplogroup A‑D and X arrived in one migration. Based on recent research Haplo group c is believed to have arrived in the Americas 6000 to 8000 years ago. Haplo group x is believed to have arrived in the North American continent around 13000 years ago. I believe the most currently accepted theories is that there were three migrations. But that can change and there is certainly no consensus among all researchers and anthropologist as you can tell from the links below.
When comes to the Druze of Israel being genetically related to the North American Indians through Haplogroup x. Those dna results are concrete. It does help confirm the Book of Mormon as a historical record. Scientist believe Haplogroup x crossed the Bering land bridge even though there is not a genetic trail from the Middle East to the North American continent that proves this crossing. See my essay and other post for more details.
I believe researchers are getting closer to a true understanding of how the Americas were populated. The article below states that boats/watercraft were used to help in the populating of the American continents. The reason for this is that skeletons were found on Islands off the California coast that date to when supposedly the crossing of haplogroup x across the Bering land bridge happened. I would agree with the idea that boats were used as descried in the Book of Mormon.
See these essays for dating issues. I believe the Hebrew and old world culture and technology found among the Hopewell and Native Americans correctly dates Haplogroup x arrival in North America.
Thanks for the response! I have read the material you referenced. Sadly, I’m still having trouble understanding how it supports your conclusions. I still think you’re making several logical leaps in the genetic argument and I’ll try to explain them below.
You’re right that there is a lot of support for multiple migration theories but none of the evidence you’ve linked points to a middle-eastern source for any of them. For instance, the Harvard study you linked describes three separate migrations from Asia: the initial “First Americans” migration, one to the far north that can be seen in the genetics of the Aleut-Inuit, and one that has a minority influence on the genetics of the Chipewyan people of the Hudson Bay region of Canada. This research does not provide any evidence for Nephites, rather it says that the vast majority of native american peoples came from the single, Asian, “First Americans” migration. Evidence that multiple migrations occurred isn’t an open door for a Nephite migration. Nor does it indicate that any bit of native american genetic background is unaccounted-for.
You’re also right that the Druze of Israel are genetically related to native americans through Haplogroup X. However, this relation isn’t evidence for a Nephite migration to the Americas either. Two populations sharing a portion of their genetic background doesn’t mean one got it from the other. While searching for information on Haplogroup X in the Americas, I found this article: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages/ Its refutation of the concept of Israelite genetics in pre-columbian America is persuasive and I’d like to know what you think of it. Here’s a summary of its points:
Haplogroup X is not unique or especially common in Israelite/Jewish populations. It shows up in lots of other Old World populations. The Druze do show a higher frequency of X but only because they’re a contemporary refugium population for it, not because X originated in Galilee. The types of X found in Middle East populations are not closely related to the types of X found in the Americas. This difference means that sharing X is not evidence for a direct migration from the Middle East to the Americas. Focusing on only the X relation is misleading because it ignores other genetic evidence. If a Nephite migration had occurred, we should see other common Middle Eastern lineages in native american populations. This isn’t the case. X began to diversify about 31,800 years ago, much earlier than a Nephite migration could account for.
It is uncertain how many migrations were responsible for populating the pre-Columbian Americas but that uncertainty isn’t evidence for a Nephite migration. So too, we don’t know exactly how Haplogroup X got to America but that doesn’t mean it came from the Middle East.
The energy you’ve invested in this effort is commendable and I appreciate the luxury of taking amateurish shots at your carefully constructed argument. I’m sure you have an answer for it all and I’m interested to hear it.
Noah I’m glad you accept the research that shows a genetic link between the Druze of Israel and the North American Great Lake Indians. I don’t know if you read some of the other evidence that supports this genetic link being from the Old world and Old Testament timeline. One will notice Hebrew and old world practices that are and were found among Native American cultures before the Native American way of life was decimated by being Europeans. Besides the genetic evidence there are artifacts, archaeological, cultural practices, linguistic, religious beliefs, and historical accounts that show this connection. I think the Middle Eastern Hamsa symbol, fiery flying serpents depictions mentioned in the Book of Mormon and Old Testament, and Assyrian cultural aspects are all excellent examples of this. See links below. https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑4/ https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑1/ https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑3/ https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑5/ https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑6/
Not only do these evidences help support the Old Testament. In North America every facet of the Book of Mormon and then some, also gains support.
You state that haplogroup x is not Jewish dna marker. That is actually excellent evidence for the Book of Mormon and the Old Testament. Lehi is from the tribe of Manasseh. The tribe of Manasseh was under Assyrian rule for a hundred years and fell away from Hebrew beliefs like the Samaritans fell away from Hebrew beliefs from intermarriage.
The tribe of Manasseh and other Northern Kingdom tribes were conquered and taken over by the Assyrians in 723BC. The traditional lands of Manasseh become under Assyrian rule, some being deported to Assyria. In 2 Chronicles 30:1–11 explains that the Tribe of Manasseh was invited back to Jerusalem to worship back at the temple. 2 Kings 17:34 states that they no longer worshipped the God of Israel, most likely influenced by the Assyrian culture and beliefs provided by the Assyrians. Lehi and his family were most likely reconverted back to traditional beliefs.
Haplogroup x besides being found in Israel is also found in what would be Assyrian traditional land to include Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon
“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade.” (Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA haplogroup X, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/)
Genetic research does not say how haplogroup x arrived in North America. I believe the Book of Mormon is the authorize figure on that. You may disagree with all my conclusions but you can’t disprove them.
David, this isn’t at all what I understood from Heber’s comment. He has shown an understanding for the DNA studies and then you claim he must not know that haplogroup X is not of Asian origin, unlike A,B,C,D. Why are you responding with these strawman arguments?
How do you respond to the Brazil 2008 article in the American Journal of Human Genetics: “Our results strongly support the hypothesis that haplogroup X, together with the other four main mtDNA haplogroups, was part of the gene pool of a single Native American founding population; therefore they do not support models that propose haplogroup-independent migrations, such as the migration from Europe posed by the Solutrean hypothesis … Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models.”
There are a lot of different theories the bering land bridge to the solutrean theory to transoceanic voyages by Polynesian to South America. The theories range from one migration two several migrations. I believe if I’m not mistaken the most popular theory is that there were three migration from this article dated to 2012. Current dna analysis geographic features have thrown these theories into a conundrum. I frankly believe the land/ice migration across the Bering land bridge or solutrean theory across the Atlantic are all wrong. I believe the evidence will show there were transoceanic crossings by ship. In a recent pbs special they are now saying that they may have used kayaks to row from Alaska to the California coast. Instead of the unlikely crossing and superhuman feat it would take to cross large glaciers. I see no consensus on their theories its all debatable.
Have you looked at that article? Because you didn’t address the question at all. Why is your non-peer reviewed, invented explanation better than the actually proven and peer reviewed explanation from that article?
If the theories that this research paper proposes are proven you should tell that to all the researchers, scientist, and geneticist who disagree with the single founding population theory. The only thing that it proves is that Haplogroup x is found in North America and not found in central and south America and east Asia and most of Siberia.
As stated before there are many different theories. I believe the theory about only one migration has not held up against criticism very well. As stated before the theory that there were multiple migrations unless proven wrong is the theory that has the most followers among researchers and scientist.
This research article dated to 2014 refers to the three wave migration and suggest even more than three.
I’m not a professional scientist, all the research that I do is out my own personal interest. Even if I wanted to get my research and theories peer reviewed I’m not qualified to do so but feel free to criticize any of the theories or research listed.
You mentioned “This research article dated to 2014 refers to the three wave migration and suggest even more than three” ( http://www.sciencemag.org/content/345/6200/1255832), but that article has nothing to do with Native Americans. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
The quote you mention from the Brazil study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427228/) is from the abstract and it is setting the context for their study, it is not at all referring to their findings. If you were to spend time to read the study rather than just dismiss it based on the second sentence in the abstract, you may find it interesting. For example, “Therefore, our results strongly indicate that the diversity pattern in Native American mtDNA results from a demographic expansion in the founding population in which all founding haplotypes were present.” They clearly refute every one of your DNA claims, showing why haplogroup X is very limited in Siberia and found in a limited area in North America. The diversity of haplogroup X aligns with the other four groups, strongly supporting a migration of all 5 haplogroups at the same time.
Dave Mack
Heber
I did read the article in its entirety. Many researchers and geneticist do not agree with a one theory migration because haplogroup x is not found in east Asia, central and south America. If haplogroup x did come across the Bering land bridge with the other four founding hapogroups then it should be found with the other founding haplogroups in central and south america and east Asia not to mention most of Siberia but it is not. Its excuse as to why it is not I find unacceptable. You refuse to accept they idea that the one founding theory is just that a theory and its unproven nor is it agreed upon by all scientist who most say there was a three wave migration. I’m glad you find this article very interesting. Also this article does not explain how Polynesian and Australian dna made its way to South America. Probably because the find of Australian and Polynesian dna in south America was a verily recent discovery.
Heber
You are using all these periphery, non-relevant cases as evidence for a very clear hypothesis. Let me restate your own null hypothesis: haplogroup X came across with the other haplogroups. To conclude that null hypothesis is false, as you are trying to do, you must show evidence that haplogroup X couldn’t have come to Americas with the other haplogroups A, B, C, and D.
The Brazil study explains why X is not found in east Asia, central and South America and provides evidence that it did in fact diverge at the same time as A, B, C, and D in Americas. That breaks your model so you outright reject it without any evidence or reason, pure emotion.
The studies you keep referencing have nothing to do with haplogroup X. The Polynesian and Australian DNA in South America have nothing to do with haplogroup X. The Arctic/Eskimo DNA have nothing to do with haplogroup X. Quit throwing out red herrings and give me something that supports your statements that haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X distributions in Americas are from multiple migrations. Sure there may be other migrations, but none of them deal with X.
Dave Mack
Heber
The way I interpret your writing is that you think Native American haplogroup x specifically speaking haplogroup X2a the Native American sub haplogroup from X came from the other Haplogroup A,B,C, and D from Asia.
That would be incorrect the Native American Haplogroup x2a is from Haplogroup X. Haplo group x is a haplogroup found in the Middle East and Europe. It is not found in East Asia nor is it related to Asians. Haplogroup x to include the Native American sub haplogroup X2a is a Caucasian dna marker not a Asian marker.
In fact the highest concentrations of sub haplogroup x2 besides North America is found in Israel and Native Americans have the highest concentration of X2. Scientist have theorized that the distribution of haplo group x emerged from Israel to include the Native American Haplogroup X2.
My theory is which you incorrectly state. Since haplogroup x originated somewhere in the Middle East area you should see a genetic trail of haplo group x from the Middle East to the North American continent via the Bering land Bridge. This is not the case. I do not see genetic drift as an acceptable excuse. It is absent in east Asia most of Siberia and most of the west coast of North America to include central and South America. Based on this evidence shown I state that Haplogroup x did not come across the Bering land bridge, same way people say that the Book of Mormon is false because Israeli dna is not found in Meso America. I believe haplogroup x arrived in North America as explained in the Book of Mormon. The research article you state does not refute the fact that Haplo group x is not found in East Asia. It does not refute that Native American haplo group x2a is a Caucasian dna marker. It does not refute the evidence that Native American and Israeli haplo group x2 is found in Israel and North America and that it is not an Asian dna marker. I use old world technology, linguistic, culture and religious beliefs found among North American Indians to prove my timeline.
You can keep referring to this research article as your golden bullet but I don’t see it disproving any of my theories or evidence I use to support it. The studies that this research article uses to show a single migration is not conclusive and is not accepted by many scientist. The reason why I quote other research paper about other waves of migration that populated North America is just that. There where multiple waves that populated the Americas not one and it was just not Asian DNA. It’s confirmed that Caucasian Polynesian and Australian dna is found in the Americas pre Columbus. I hope this helps.
Dave Mack
Heber
Here references made from research articles referring to Haplogroup x being a Caucasian dna marker and it being from the Middle East.
“An attractive hypothesis to explain this geographic concentration of lineages which diverged remotely within an ancient haplogroup (and which are not identified in other populations of the region) is that these Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged”
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of “Caucasian” alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa (Native American Tribe) and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of ~30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%. (mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)
“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade”
“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population” (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor” “The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1)
“Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.” (The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
Heber
I am very perplexed by your response, David. I understand very well that HG X is not a variation of HGs A, B, C, or D. And I understand very well that HG X2 is found primarily in the Near East, etc. I feel somewhat embarrassed that my responses led you to think so poorly of me.
Your premise that “you should see a genetic trail of haplo group x from the Middle East to the North American continent via the Bering land Bridge” is just nonsense. Why would that have to be the case? That was exactly what the Brazilian study you seem to irrationally despise clearly refuted. Your evidence to the contrary are all from 2001 or prior. Sure, there were other migrations and some of them may not have been through the corridor, but those don’t matter for the HGs in question: A‑D and X.
I haven’t seen any study after 2008 that presents a better explanation for HG X2a and X2g, please let me know if I am wrong on that point. There is a 2011 study (http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002%2Fajpa.21614) that compared the Native American genomes and found “Taking into account that C4c is deeply rooted in the Asian portion of the mtDNA phylogeny and is indubitably of Asian origin, the finding that C4c and X2a are characterized by parallel genetic histories definitively dismisses the controversial hypothesis of an Atlantic glacial entry route into North America.”
I’m not sure how to express the implications of that. X2a is LINKED to C4c, they could not have come from separate migrations. Do you have any more recent studies that shows there is doubt regarding the origin of HGs X2a and X2g?
Dave Mack
Heber
Nothing can take the place of hard evidence showing that Haplogroup x left its dna in places that it once traveled. If HG X migrated over hundreds to thousands of years from a fairly warm template climate to subzero, freezing cold, arctic temperatures that are inhospitable to human life I would like see physical evidence for that. Using genetic drift, founder’s effect etc to explain away the lack of physical evidence is the same argument Mesoamerican apologist used to explain away their dna problems. Proving that HG X traveled with C4C across the Bering land bridge is going to be tough in my unprofessional opinion. It was kind of confusing doing research on Haplo group C because they have changed the names of different sub haplo groups of C. So unless I’m missing something a lot of what I read about HG C arrival into the America happened around 6000–8000BP. There is a huge problem with that. Scientist believe that Bering Land Bridge was covered by the sea by 11000BP. Scientist are essentially saying unless I’m reading this incorrectly Haplo group C arrived to America by boat. That makes sense to me because HG C is found on Islands to include the Polynesian Islands, New Guinea, Melanesia and Japan. HG C4 is most common HG of indigenous Australians. How anybody can tie this with HG X is going to be tough unless they want to say HG X arrived by boat. In that case I would agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130 http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_C_%28Y-DNA%29
Simon, The reference you are using I extensively quote in the essay. You are right to say that Haplo group x is found in south Siberia or the Altain region of Siberia.
The haplogroup x Altaian dna is the small yellow dot found in south Siberia on the Haplogroup x distribution map below
It’s worth pointing out the Altaian Haplogroup x dna is not related to the Native American Haplogroup x found in North America and it arrived after the Bering ice bridge was not crossable.
These quotes come from the same article you use as a reference.
“Third, the few Altaian (Derenko et al. 2001) and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia.”
“It is notable that X2 includes the two complete Native American X sequences that constitute the distinctive X2a clade, a clade that lacks close relatives in the entire Old World, including Siberia.”
“Haplogroup X is an exception to this pattern of limited geographical distribution. It is found, generally at low frequencies, in both West Eurasians and some northern groups of Native Americans but, intriguingly, it is absent in modern north Siberian and East Asian populations”
Native American haplo group x is absent in Siberia and East Asia. In my unprofessional opinion that is a huge problem for the Bering ice bridge theory.
In your book you state that dna disproves the Book of Mormon as false because Israeli dna is not found in Mesoamerica but Israeli dna is found in North America among Native Americans. The Druze of Galilee found in Israel have the highest concentration of haplo group x in the world which is also tied to Native Americans. The Ojibwa Native Americans have the second highest concentration of haplo group x. In the same article you reference it says that Iranians have more in common with Native Americans than Siberians or East Asians
“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade”
Using your same reasoning the Book of Mormon is true and Native American Haplogroup x did not cross the bering is bridge because it is absent in Siberia and east Asia.
Geneticist have also theorized that the Druze of Galilee is the refugium were haplo group x dispersed a perfect match for the bible and Book of Mormon.
“An attractive hypothesis to explain this geographic concentration of lineages which diverged remotely within an ancient haplogroup (and which are not identified in other populations of the region) is that these Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged”
When it comes to dating Kennewick man a skeleton with Haplogroup x dna he dated to 9000 BP (7000BC) after several attempts. Kennwick man has been dated to 3750BC, 6410BC, 4130BC, and 6130BC. Those are some wide ranges. In my unprofessional and biased opinion the scientist based on their own biases kept dating Kennewick man until they got the date they wanted. Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables. I believe the old world (Hebrew) language and culture and technology found among the Hopewell Adena and Native Americans is a better indication of age. Not to mention there is no dna evidence for a Bering Ice Bridge crossing not only for Haplo group x but other Haplo groups. See technology and Hebrew culture ties that I believe show correct dating.
I believe that the solutrean and Bering ice bridge for the populating of the America continent to be false. But the solutrean has more dna evidence for it than the Bering ice bridge theory. But your right the majority of scientist consider the solutrean theory to be unacceptable.
Here are some previously posted comments about radio carbon dating and holes in the Bering Ice Bridge theory.
“Although hgs A, B, C, D, and X are the five founding mtDNA haplogroups in the Americas, previous studies have shown the near-absence of hgs B, C, and X in Paleo-Eskimos and Thule, as well as among present-day Inuit (25, 43–47).”
Besides the dna evidence I’m using the Hebrew cultural ties and technology to prove the biblical timeline crossing. As far as the technology the woven cloth clothing, metallurgy, breastplates, and fortresses is confirmed by modern archaeological evidence. DNA evidence is also causing problems for the Bering Ice Bridge THEORY. It was first believed there was one migration 50000 thousand years ago. Then it changed to three migrations about 20000 thousand years ago and now scientist believe that haplo group x crossed (for which there is no evidence for) 13000 years ago.
No they are adding more migrations than just three.
“Therefore, an additional Paleo-Eskimo migration wave should be added to the three-wave hypothesis in explaining the peopling of the Americas”
South America has Polynesian dna. So some scientist believe Polynesians sailed to South America. To say that they sailed to South America prior to 12000 bc would be absurd.
South America has Australian dna but there is no Australian found in Asia or Siberia or the Near East.
Ok, so I haven’t had enough to time to really investigate all of his claims in the paper, but I focused mainly on the DNA aspect since it is the hinge of his entire thesis. It seems he has overlooked some of the more recent research regarding the Haplotype Group X data that he uses to demonstrate a link between NE Amerindian tribes and Europe, however, most of the recent research within the past 5 years has confirmed that this X2a group also came across the Bering straight about 20,000 years ago. In fact, a Mongolian girl was found last year with this same haplotype around the time that these migrations would be occuring. There is even geological evidence suggesting a nice route to cut across southern Canada to end up in the eastern U.S. I can cite many of the articles here, but there is an article that summarizes a now refuted hypothesis that is similar to what he presents (DNA aspect): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis
As far as his anthropological findings where he tries to associate the Hopewell Indians with Hebrew origins, I think the more parsimonious explanation is that we have a case of convergent evolution (i.e. bats and birds both have wings but that doesn’t mean they are from the same common ancestor). Why couldn’t the native American’s evolved some amount of complex trade system with cities, burial grounds, complex expression of arts, and other related components of an advanced civilization? The ingredients for such are present since the SE and NE portions of the U.S. are and have been rich in resources to support large agrarian economies with complex trade systems. I believe your friend is making the same mistake that many 19th century intellects made by assuming that since the Oneida people were advanced enough to even have a democratic form of government and semi-capitalist trade system they must’ve at some point come from a biblical origin. It sounds great, but the DNA just isn’t there — and it should be. That’s just my two cents.
I see the radio carbon dating for the bering ice bridge as unreliable. The idea that all the founding haplo groups crossed the bering ice bridge between 20000–50000 years ago is not supported by DNA, archaeological, cultural, and linguistic evidence. For example Australian, Polynesian, and haplo groups b,c, and x which is found in the Americas is not found in locations to prove a crossing across the Bering Ice Bridge.
“Although hgs A, B, C, D, and X are the five founding mtDNA haplogroups in the Americas, previous studies have shown the near-absence of hgs B, C, and X in Paleo-Eskimos and Thule, as well as among present-day Inuit (25, 43–47).”
The solutrean theory which is a better theory for Haplogroup x in my opinion does not account for the other haplo groups not proven nor does it account for the Hebrew cultural ties and artifacts and technology.
Besides the dna evidence I’m using the Hebrew cultural ties and technology to prove the biblical timeline crossing. As far as the technology the woven cloth clothing, metallurgy, breastplates, and fortresses is confirmed by modern archaeological evidence.
As far as Hebrew cultural ties unless you can discredit the many sources used by historians and anthropologist is good evidence to support a biblical crossing and timeline.
When scientist first dated mitochondrial eve she dated to 6000BC
” Using our empirical rate to calibrate the mtDNA molecular clock would result in an age of the mtDNA MRCA of only ~6,500 y.a., clearly incompatible with the known age of modern humans.’ ”
Nat Genet. 1997 Apr;15(4):363–8. A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region. Parsons TJ, Muniec DS, Sullivan K, Woodyatt
DNA evidence is also causing problems for the Bering Ice Bridge THEORY. It was first believed there was one migration 50000 thousand years ago. Then it changed to three migrations about 20000 thousand years ago and now scientist believe that haplo group x crossed (for which there is no evidence for) 13000 years ago. No they are adding more migrations than just three.
“Therefore, an additional Paleo-Eskimo migration wave should be added to the three-wave hypothesis in explaining the peopling of the Americas”
South America has Polynesian dna. So some scientist believe Polynesians sailed to South America. To say that they sailed to South America prior to 12000 bc would be absurd.
South America has Australian dna but there is no Australian found in Asia or Siberia.
Haplo group X, B, and C dna is not found in paleo Eskimos. That’s odd considering all three would have had to have crossed in that Artic region.
“Although hgs A, B, C, D, and X are the five founding mtDNA haplogroups in the Americas, previous studies have shown the near-absence of hgs B, C, and X in Paleo-Eskimos and Thule, as well as among present-day Inuit (25, 43–47).”
Also I believe the Hopewell and Adena technology to include metallurgy and woven cloth came from the Old world. A crossing of 12000–50000 years ago would predate these technologies
Also if you can disprove the Native American ties to Hebrew and Assyrian culture let me know. Because I’m using that to support my theories.
In my opinion scientist have been adjusting variable inputs involved with carbon dating such as carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to prove their theories
This is nonsense. The 12000–30000 years number isn’t something scientists just pulled out of their ass. You can tell how long ago populations intersected by how much the DNA has changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_clock
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