I have always loved apologetics. I enjoy discussing doctrine, scriptural versus and evidence that support or are seen as evidence against the Book of Mormon or LDS church. For that reason I have studied the most common complaints and evidence for and against the church.
In my teen years, when some teens would be doing regular teen activities and taking dates to the Mesa temple pageant, I would go to the Mesa temple pageant — not to watch the pageant, but to have a “discussion” with the evangelical Christians handing out their tracks. From the time I was 17 until I left on my mission, I believed I was preparing myself to not only win converts but to defend the LDS church. I was very surprised when I received my mission call to Sydney Australia to teach atheist and Buddhist Chinese immigrants in Mandarin Chinese. While in Australia, I considered myself lucky if a came across a Chinese immigrant that was vaguely familiar with the biblical Moses or Adam and Eve. Needless to say, all the time I spent researching critiques of the Book of Mormon and Bible was not utilized, but I still enjoyed my mission and found it immensely challenging and rewarding.
After my mission, I still studied apologetics, but by 2004 my enthusiasm for LDS apologetics started to wane. A lot of that was due to the type of evidence coming out in support of the Mesoamerican model. Non-LDS archaeologists and anthropologists could not support the claims being made by their LDS colleagues. I found this to be confusing, but many times with LDS apologetics when those Mesoamerican critiques could not be suitably answered, a wait and see attitude was taken. I think of that time period as the dark ages of Book of Mormon geography and DNA apologetics. Unfortunately, my opinion is that LDS researchers successfully proved that the Book of Mormon did not take place in Mesoamerica.
Around 2011 I watched a four hour long video by Rod Meldrum about the North American Book of Mormon Geography model. I found the video extremely exciting in that it all made sense why the golden plates were found in New York state and certain scriptural versus found in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. This video reignited my excitement about apologetics, and I began watching other videos by Wayne May about the Heartland Book of Mormon geography model.
At about this point, I started going on blogs that were critical of the LDS church and its claims. There was one blog in particular that was run by a geneticist. I started posting some of the Rod Meldrum and Wayne May evidence in the comment section of his blog. At one point a discussion about Micmac characters ensued regarding their origination. Were they a creation of Father Chretian Le Clercq, or did he use already existing Micmac characters? I found a translated copy of Father Clercq’s book and started reading to find the answer to this question. While reading his book, I read what appeared to be Christ’s visit to America, the Genesis account, the flood, and several Hebrew and Book of Mormon traditions and beliefs that appear to support the Book of Mormon and Bible. This was about two years ago; from there I continued to research more evidence written by early explorers and historians and expanded my research by geneticist and anthropologist regarding DNA and artifacts. Unlike the Mesoamerican model, all quotes and accounts in this document are from non-LDS archaeologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and historians. The research and accounts date from 2015 all the way back to the 16th century.
20 Reasons why the Book of Mormon is a Historical Match in North America
In the 6 sections of this essay, I provide evidence that the North American geography model answers all the normal critiques of the Book of Mormon“s historicity. The following 20 points outline the evidence I have gathered:
The oldest known Hopewell Indian civilization began around 500BC at Crystal River Florida, a timeline that matches the Nephite arrival in North America
The Hopewell disappearance of 400AD-500AD matches the Nephite genocide timeline from the Book of Mormon, the last epistle written in 421AD
The Hopewell Indians had a south to north migration that matches the Nephite south to north migration, as described in the Book of Mormon
The last Hopewell Indian sites are in close proximity to the Hill Cumorah, a geographical match for Moroni’s farewell
Some North American Indian tribes had fair skins and appear European to early settlers and missionaries
Some North American Indian tribes believed that they sailed to American from another country
The Adena Indians closely match the Jaredite civilization in the Book of Mormon – such as the end of the Adena culture around 200BC
Hopewell Indians had a Caucasian DNA marker called haplogroup X that is also found in Israel and Europe, but not East Asia (page 2)
The Hopewell (and Adena/Jaredites) Indians had an advanced metallurgy that included the use of copper and meteoric iron tools, breast-plates, head-plates and jewelry as described in the Book of Mormon, including: (page 3)
Smelting
Iron Swords — early American settlers found oxidized American Indian iron swords in Indian mound ruins
Copper and brass plates with hieroglyphs, Hebrew, and unknown characters on them
Steel bows
Fortifications: Hopewell sites had large earthen mounds with wooden picket post and towers – this fits Book of Mormon descriptions (page 3)
Ancient battle grounds in the state of New York and other mass burial pits (page 3)
Hopewell had fine twined linen and woven clothing (page 3)
Hopewell had an extensive and advanced trade system with Highways that stretched to the Rocky ties to Joseph Smith revelation of Zelph (page 3)
Animals and modes of travel are consistent: (page 3)
Elephants
Cattle
Horses & Chariots
Goats
Bees
Sheep
Cureloms and Cumoms
Barley and wheat in Hopewell agriculture (page 3)
Native American tribes had ancient metal tablets (page 3)
Native American tribes tell of losing their scripture and the gospel (page 3)
Native American customs and words that match up to Book of Mormon words and places (page 4)
Many other ties between Book of Mormon and North America: (page 4)
Indian histories include Christ’s appearance in America
The New Madrid Fault
Keeshkumen
Bury the Hatchet
Story of Lamanite daughters
King Benjamin’s Tower
Medicine
Waters of Mormon
Hill Cumorah
Metal Plates
Coins
Kentucky (River of Blood)
River Sidon is most likely the Mississippi River
Verses of scripture showing the geography supports the Heartland model (page 5)
Why North American Indians and ‑only- North American Indians are Direct Descendants of Lehi
Hopewell Indians match the timeframes and geography of the Book of Mormon
North American Indians have a Caucasian DNA marker
The Native Americans believed they removed and killed off a Caucasian race of Indian
North American Indians have histories of sailing from another country
Hopewell Indian
The oldest Hopewell site Crystal River Florida close proximity to the ocean is a likely match for Lehi’s landing in North America.
The Hopewell disappearance of 400AD-500AD matches the Nephite genocide timeline from the Book of Mormon the last epistle written in 421AD.
While the cause of the cultural shift away from Hopewell practices may be unclear, this change had occurred by around 400AD. (Theler and Boszhardt 2003:121).
16 runestones found in North America are generally believed to be fake. These runestones have what appears to be Hebrew, Phoenician, and Greek-like characters. These are the Bat Creek Stone, AVM Runestone, Bourne stone, Grave Creek Stone, Heavener Runestone, Kensington Runestone, Narragansett Runestone, Oklahoma runestones, Poteau Runestone, Spirit Pond runestones, Vérendrye Runestone, Shawnee Runestone, Ohio Key stone, Ohio Decalogue stone, The Jonson Bradner stone, and the Michigan Relics. The generally accepted theory behind these runestones is that 19th and 20th century farmers and citizens had an insatiable desire to make fake Indian paleo Hebrew, Greek and Phoenician like artifacts and had the ability to do so. I find this problematic.
Hopewell Indian Interaction Sphere
The oldest Hopewell civilization started near the Gulf Coast and moved north to the Great Lakes area to Include New York. See the map below:
Hill Cumorah
At the final battles at the Hill Cumorah, nearly a quarter of a million Nephites were slaughtered. An untold number of Lamanites were also killed. Indian legend supports this great and terrible battle that caused the death of hundreds of thousands of people.
Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:
“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)
In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:
“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)
Caucasian North American Indians
Since traditional Jews are known to be Caucasian or of lighter skin color. It’s not hard to fathom that the Tribe of Manasseh, the tribe Lehi descended from, also would have Caucasian or lighter skin color. Haplogroup X found in North American Indians is considered to be a Caucasian DNA marker. Other North, Central, and South American Indians show the haplogroups A, B, C, and D, which came from migrating Asian ethnic tribes of that period, with which Laman’s seed would have likely intermarried.
The Nephites became Lamanites and Lamanites became Nephites suggesting different shades in skin color as the Book of Mormon states.
“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe.
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed (1972) and Szathmary et al. (1974) were able to reveal the presence of “Caucasian” alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of ~30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)
William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.” (Murray 1908)
“The Cherokee are of a lighter color than the greater number of the North American Indians that are known to me.” (Barton 1798 pg. XIV)
“They (Algonquin Indians) have the same complexion as the French.” (Jouvency 1710)
About Gaspesian/Micmac Indians
“Although children are born among them with hair of different colours, as in Europe.” (Clercq 1680 pg. 237)
“The hue or color of their bodies is generally not as white as ours though some quite fair skinned ones are to be found and most are born white.” (In Mohawk Country: Early Narratives about a Native People, by Dean R. Snow, Charles T. Gehring, William A. Starna)
The Amlicites were Nephites who wanted to be ruled by a king instead of appointed judges. These Nephites rebelled and in their rebellion joined the Lamanites. There was one problem though. I believe that their skin color was of a lighter Caucasian skin color. The seed of Laman on their arrival in the new world most likely intermarried with the indigenous Asian ethnic tribes of their day. So the Amlicites would have most likely looked like Nephites instead of Lamanites. So in order for the Amlicites to distinguish themselves from the Nephites they marked their foreheads with red paint. The Cherokee Indians are excellent candidates to be the Amlicites. From historical accounts to the current day many Cherokee who claim to be full blooded Cherokee have European features and skin color. Its looks as though red paint continued to be a part of Lamanite culture.
Alma 3:4 – And the Amlicites were distinguished from the Nephites, for they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites.
The haplogroup X Caucasian DNA marker might be demonstrated in several George Caitlyn Native American portraits. This is assuming that the Native American chiefs and individuals have no European admixture of the 18th and 19th century, since the portraits were painted in the 19th century.
George Caitlin painted several Native American portraits, including the eight portraits shown below.
“The Cherokee are of a lighter color than the greater number of the North American Indians that are known to me.” (Barton 1798 pg. XIV)
Wolf Pawnee Tribe, his name translates to Brave Chief
Cherokee Indian, Cól-lee, Band Chief
“They (Algonquin Indians) have the same complexion as the French.” (JOSEPH, JOUVENCY 1710)
“(Micmac Indian children) are born among them with hair of different colours, as in Europe.” (Clercq 1680, pg. 237)
Sauk Fox Tribe, Pam‑a ho
Lay-láw-she-kaw, Goes up the River, an Aged Chief
Missouria Tribe, Haw-che-ke-sug-ga
Shawnee, Lay-loo-ah-pee-ai-shee-kaw
Nakota Sioux, Tah-zee-keh-da-cha
Chief Bread of the Oneida Tribe
It’s interesting that many of the portraits with European features also wear a turban like head dress.
A White Race and its Extermination
Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:
“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.” (John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)
The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.
Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:
“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“ (Stone 1838 pg. 484)
“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.” (Murray 1908 pg. 46)
Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:
“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.”” (Swanton 1909 pg. 184)
“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.” (Mooney 1902 pg. 22)
“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?” (Haywood 1823 pg. 166)
“An old Indian, in conversation with Colonel James F. Moore, of Kentucky, informed him that the western country, and particularly Kentucky, had once been inhabited by white people, but that they were exterminated by the Indians. That the last battle was fought at the falls of Ohio, and that the Indians succeeded in driving the Aborigines into a small island below the rapids, where the whole of them were cut to pieces.” (M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.” (M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
Sailed Here from another Country
In the Book of Mormon it states that Lehi and his family sailed from the Middle East to another country. Some North American Indian tribes have a belief that they arrived to the North American continent through sailing from another country.
Gaspesian/Micmac belief of how they arrived on the North American continent
The Gaspesian/Micmac have two theories of how they arrived. The first is by sailing from another country, and the other belief fits the Genesis account and flood.
“Others hold that this new world has been peopled by certain individuals who, having embarked upon the sea for the purpose of establishing a colony in foreign parts, were surprised by storm and tempest, which threw them upon the coasts of North America. Here they were unfortunately shipwrecked, and, with their ships, they lost everything which they must have had with them of property, and of the things which they valued most in the world. Affairs were such that this shipwreck having left them wholly without hope of ever returning into their own country.” (Clercq 1680, pg. 85)
Iroquois legend of a foreign people who sailed to the continent then were destroyed
Cusick’s book I believe is about the Nephite and Lamanite Interactions and fighting except from the Lamanite perspective told in Iroquois Legend.
“After a long time a number of foreign people sailed from a port unknown; but unfortunately before reached their destination the winds drove them contrary ; at length their ship wrecked somewhere on the southern part of the Great Island, and many of the crews perished ; a few active persons were saved ….They immediately selected a place for residence and built a small fortification in order to provide against the attacks of furious beasts….After many years the foreign people became numerous, and extended their settlements ; but afterwards they were destroyed” (Cusick 1838, pg. 16)
Natchez Indians of Mississippi concerning a race of Indian that preceded them
“They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises.” (Swanton 1909, pg. 184)
“There is a rock, called the Dighton rock, on Taunton River, near Dighton, in Massachusetts. It is a large rock in the margin of the sea, and upon it are inscriptions in strange characters, partly alphabetical and partly hieroglyphic… In another scene, there is a vessel, with its masts, flags, and long rudder, as in the oriental vessels at this day…The subject generally seems intended to commemorate the arrival of a people there from the ocean and the east, and who, having had intercourse with that natives) (Haywood 1823, pg. 329)
The Jaredites
The Adena (Jaredite) culture ending at 200BC is a Book of Mormon match.
Bones discovered in Hopewell and Adena Indian sites were of larger than normal size. Some of the skeletons were estimated to be 7 feet in height. The Brother of Jared was considered a mighty man large in stature.
The Adena civilization also had breastplates and cloth as described in the Book of Mormon.
Adena Culture
The Adena culture is the civilization that is most likely candidate to be the Jaredites as explained in the Book of Mormon. The end of the Adena culture is a match for the Book of Mormon of 200BC. The Jaredites are stated have breastplates it’s shown that the Adena had a form of metallurgy. The Jaredite written language was most likely cuneiform. Cuneiform is known to be written on metal and clay tablets. The Adena are known to have stone tablets with stylized geometric designs on their tablets. Correlations between Adena and Hopewell in some ways also help support the Adena as the Jaredite people.
It’s believed that the Adena civilization began around 1000 BC. The Jaredites would have arrived on the American continent around 2000 BC to the time of the Tower of Babel. Some theologians have suggested the tower babel could be the Mesopotamia Ziggurat of Babylon or the city of Ur.
The Mesopotamian culture was distinct in several ways. In one particular manner is the shape Mesopotamian built boats, it is distinct from the majority of other cultures. The Mesopotamians built boats that were round called coracles. The Book of Mormon states that the Brother of Jared built boats that are tight like unto a dish. The circular design of the Brother of Jared’s boats in today’s standards is an odd and peculiar design. But during his time in what could be Mesopotamia the circular design of the boat would fit right in. Iraq people in what is ancient Mesopotamia continued to make round coracles up until the 1990s when the coracles were replaced with modern boats.
Neo Babylonian Ziggurat
Because the Adena culture began around 1000BC and the tower of Babel dated to 2000BC. I’m going to assume the original settlements of the Brother of Jared have not been found. According to scripture the brother of Jared landed the eight circular boats in what would now be Lake Ontario. The boats as described in the scriptures were light upon the water. In this way the boats must have been blown up the St Lawrence Seaway to Lake Ontario.
The end of the Adena culture is believed to have happened around 200BC. It’s assumed that the Adena eventually became part of the Hopewell people the Adena superimposing the Hopewell culture as their own. There are aspects of this that line up with the Book of Mormon.
From the time of Babel the Brother of Jared’s posterity continues until Coriantumr leads his people in war to the point that he is the only person alive from the Jaredites. After the slaughter of all his people Coriantumr lives with the Mulekites for the space of nine moons. As explained in the Book of Omni the period of Coriantumr living with the Mulekites and the destruction of the Jaredites is between 323BC-130BC. This time period falls in line with the Adena culture end or being absorbed into the Hopewell culture. We know that the Mulekites who Coriantumr stayed with became Nephites. It states that the Mulekites learned the Nephite language and that Mosiah became their king. Since archaeologist are not showing a third civilization along with the Adena and Hopewell. I’m going to speculate that the Mulekites are being mistaken as Hopewell possibly Adena.
There are archaeological aspects and historical records given in the Book of Mormon that do line up certainly not perfectly but in pieces. Archaeological records show that the Adena people and the Hopewell combined together at 200BC. Since archaeologists have not suggested that the Adena people disappeared it obviously an aspect that does not fit the historical record of the Book of Mormon. But I don’t think it’s completely outlandish to suggest that the Mulekites and Nephites took over Adena sites as their own after the genocide of the Jaredites. But some sites stayed distinctly Adena and do not show the Hopewell admixture after 200BC suggesting in my unprofessional opinion those sites were abandoned by the Adena because they were all killed by war with their own people. Anthropologist can speculate as to why but only a study of the Book of Mormon in my unprofessional will reveal mysteries of the Adena and Hopewell cultures.
Below is a map of Adena and Hopewell sites. One can see the admixture of Adena with Hopewell around 200BC and Adena sites that were abandoned. Fort Ancient sites date to 1000AD are believed to have descended from the Hopewell (Lamanites). One can be very well looking at cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
A controversial aspect of the argument is that I believe that the Adena culture are the posterity of the giants listed in the Bible. The bible states that a race of giants lived in certain areas of the Old World. Goliath based on Josephus, and the 4th century Septuagint manuscripts was 6 feet 9 inches tall. The Book of Mormon supports the idea that the Jaredites were of large size. The Book of Mormon states the Brother of Jared was considered a large and mighty man (Ether 1:34). Also when the Nephites found Jaredite breast plates they considered them of large size (Mosiah 8:10). There is archaeological evidence of 20th century researchers and early settlers finding skeletons that were of large size some being seven feet tall.
“The workmen who were engaged in digging ditches for underdraining had a few days before come upon large quantities of pottery and skeletons of large size, but had carelessly broken them instead of preserving them. “ (Peet 1892 pg. 163)
“These will prove demonstratively, that the ancient inhabitants of this country, either the primitive or secondary settlers, were of gigantic stature, compared with the present races of Indians.” (Haywood)
“He took a jaw bone and applied it to his own face, and when his chin touched the concave of the chin bone, the hinder ends of the jaw bone did not touch the skin of his face on either side.” (Haywood)
“The remains of burial 40 is one of the largest known to Adena; the skull-foot field measurement is 84 inches (7 feet).” (The Dover Mound, William S Webb and Charles Snow, 1959)
“This individual was of large proportions. When measured in the tomb his length was approximately 7.04 feet. All the long bones were heavy and possessed marked eminences for the attachment of muscles.” (Mounds for the Dead, by Don Dragoo, 1963).
“Two outstanding traits have been noted repeatedly for this group. One is the protruding and massive chin often with prominent bilateral protrusions. The second trait is the large size of many of the males and some of the females. A male of six feet was common and some individuals approaching seven feet in height have been found, for example, Burial 40 in the Dover Mound and Burial 54 in the Cresap Mound. Some of the females in the Dover Mound also were more than six feet in height. Not only were these Adena people tall but also the massiveness of the bones indicates powerfully built individuals. The head was generally big with a large cranial capacity.” (Mounds for the Dead, by Don Dragoo, 1963).
Nephi and the Brother of Jared who’s posterity would be the Nephites and Jaredites are both depicted as large men (1 Nephi 4:31, Ether 1:34). Mormon also considered to be large in stature. (Mormon 2:1)
David Cusick book entitled Ancient History of The Six Nations is about the legends of the Iroquois. I believe their legends has a hodgepodge of the Jaredites and Nephite histories mixed together. The traditional lands of the Iroquois includes New York and they have legends of exterminating a white race of Indian. The six nations are composed of the Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga, Seneca, Onondaga, and Tuscarora nations. Some of these tribes might have been Nephites. But in these legends are signs that their ancestors knew of the Jaredites.
In the History of the Six Nations one of their legend a powerful tribe of “stonish giants” enter the country. The Iroquois battle the giants but the giants are too powerful. The Iroquois God sees the distress of his people and devices a plan to get rid of these giants. A band of giants are tricked into to entering a ravine and a mass of rocks fall onto the giants killing all but one. This one survivor tell the other giants and the giants seek asylum in the North Country. There are bits and pieces to this legend that match the historical record of the Book of Mormon. One is that these giants have forts of protection. The giants had stony exterior which I would attribute breast plates and head plates that the Jaredites had. The giants had clubs which I’m going to interpret as swords. I believe the use of swords got lost with time. Another important aspect is that the Iroquois in this Legend never kill off these stonish giants but the reason why the leave Iroquois country is due to their God. Their God kills off a band of giants there is one lone survivor who tells the rest of the giants what happened. The rest of the giants depart the Iroquois country via Niagara Falls or the narrow passage and seek asylum into the Land Desolation. The Land Desolation as described in the Book of Mormon is where all the Jaredites or giants are eventually killed leaving nothing but bones and their forts of protection. The geographical locations where this legend takes place is perfect in this way. The land Desolation being entered by the narrow passage. The place that these giants seek asylum is also the place the Jaredite people are extinguished by war against each other, and in the end there is one lone survivor, Coriantumr.
The depictions of the stonish giants is pictured below from Cusick’s book:
In the next section, I present the convincing DNA connection between the Hopewell Indians and the Middle East.
Tribe of Manasseh — North American Nephite Model
Hello, My name is Angela. I am glad that someone has put this site up. I am a convert to the church. The first time that the spirit testified to me was when I was told the Book of Mormon was a history of the Native Americans here on this continent and that Jesus Christ came to visit them. The moment I heard this I knew I was hearing truth and I knew the things that I felt were not coincidence and that The Savior had not forgotten us and I knew he loved us and I knew what I had felt since I was a child was true. I am pale skinned and schoolmates growing up teased me when I said I was Indian, I learned more of my family tree and found that I was Native from many lines, Cherokee, Shawnee, and Fox, and Wyandotte and more. I have always felt something that I couldn’t explain as if there are times that I can hear an energy from within but from God calling me to do something. When I learned that Jesus visited the native Americans on this Continent I knew the Gospel was true instantly because I could hear that call, as if I were being called home. and when I learned about Joseph Smith I did not trust him instantly in fact I was afraid but since I knew that the book of mormon was true and I knew that if I asked God He would answer me.… Read more »
This will be my last post on this site and I’m sure that will please the LDS crowd. As soon as I finish I will unsubscribe. My interest in the LDS began in the late 1960s when a couple missionaries came to my house to spread the word. After two visits, I politely told them that I didn’t wish to continue because the presentation didn’t grab me. I remember reading the so-called “promise of Moroni” (as missionaries are apt to mark it up in Book of Mormon free copies), and thought it to be a rather vague and weak statement, not an especially good verse for recruiting new believers. So a few days passed and I received a call from the LDS church office, as they wanted to set up a baptism date for me. A little outraged (because I gave no indication of wanting to join), I hung up on the caller. Soon thereafter, the two missionaries where seen back at my house, knocking at the door. I very quietly slithered away into the back room and ignored the knocking as best as I could. They stood out there for at least 10 minutes knocking, and said a couple times loudly, “We know you’re in there.” I’ve told this story to a number of Mormons through the years and have been told that missionaries used a more aggressive method back in the 60s and 70s. Based on this early encounter, I began reading the Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants,… Read more »
to David McKane The buffalo dodge is an attempt to change the subject. Obviously buffalo were killed and there’s plenty of proof of it, not just because of skeletal remains but because we have reports from many sources; Indians, government officials, bystanders, newspapers, landowners, etc. etc. The 600 million figure might be hyped a bit, however. Every major civilization has left a great deal of physical evidence to sift through. Only an imaginary civilization can get by without leaving traces of any major structures, edifices, etc. In my collection of books on mound builders in Illinois, (published by Illinois University Press) the most impressive structures I’ve seen are cattle stockades and some meandering trenches. The U.S. was never home to amazing structures like those found in ancient Turkey, Iran, Greece, Rome or Egypt. Are you suggesting they’re here, but we just haven’t dug it up yet?
I meant 60 million not 600. Ferd I think you are losing focus of what is important here. The advanced culture of the Hopewell as described by anthropologist and archeologist match up with what is described in the Book of Mormon. It’s not a comparison of other world civilizations or which civilizations are more advanced. The Hopewell breastplates, structures, cloth, highways, head plates, agriculture, timeline, jewelry, weapons and trade match up with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon states that the Nephites used mounds of earth. Well guess what so did the mound builders (Hopewell). Mounds of earth may not be impressive to you but it’s a perfect match for the Nephites to include all their artifacts. If you have a problem with the term advanced take that up with the anthropologist I think they would disagree with you. As far as the sources that I used they are used by historian’s anthropologist and archeologist. “The monumental architecture and artifacts of the Hopewell Culture reflect a pinnacle of achievement in the fields of art, astronomy, mathematics and engineering, the likes of which was seldom seen again in eastern North America.”
“Two thousand years ago, people of an advanced culture gathered here (Chillicothe) to conduct religious rituals and ceremonies related to their society.”
Borrowing modern research of others, then trying to make it look like an “ancient” book recorded these things long ago is a technique used by certain novelists like Philip K. Dick. “Cryptoscatology” is a style of writing not too unlike historical fiction that bases the story on known facts and urban legends and injects a conspiracy theory that’s half way plausible. I see the BoM in a similar light. For instance, everyone in J. Smith’s time knew something about the presence of ancient Indians in the area, but their basic ignorance of specifics fueled wild speculation, including the idea that the American Indians were of the lost tribe of Israel. And prior to Smith’s interest in such things, there were a number of popular books in circulation promoting the idea that ancient Israelites once flourished in North America. The basic difference between these pre BoM writings and the BoM is the attempt to make the BoM appear like an ancient relic as it invokes King James verbiage. I could go on. Let me pick apart one item here, the Adena culture, as I see no obvious BoM “match.” First of all, I beg to differ with your description of mound builders being “highly sophisticated.” There is ample proof that many of these people practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism. With the Adena folk, their sphere of influence didn’t rise to the level of “civilization” as you infer. Furthermore, the clay tablets you refer contain no cuneiform inscriptions suggesting anything that looks… Read more »
If Joseph Smith plagiarized from the archeological and native American traditions he got a lot of things right including things he could not have known about. The Hopewell tradition which the majority of North American theorist believe are the Nephites and Adena being the Jaredites. The Hopewell timeline matches the Book of Mormon. The Adena end is close to but the BOM does not give a very specific period for end of the Jaredites. The Hopewell had advanced technology such as the making of breastplates and metal working. Modern anthropologist have tried to make breastplates in the same manner they believe the Hopewell did. And even with modern presses have not replicated them. The made their own cloth clothing. Had an advanced trade system with highways that stretched for thousands miles. Obsidian found at Hopewell sites are chemically traced back to sites in the Rocky Mountains. Jaguar teeth found in Indiana are from Mexico or central America. They were agriculturist. They made old world style fortifications. Haplo group x dna which they do have originated in the middle east and North Africa region. Native American haplo group x dna is not found in Siberia east or central Asia something Joseph Smith did not know about. The Book of Mormon states there were two advanced cultures during Book of Mormon timeline. In North America you have two advanced cultures that fit during this period. All of this fits the Nephite Narrative the timelines dna and the number of cultures. Joseph had… Read more »
I don’t think Smith got a single thing right and the claims the Book of Mormon makes are not especially unique for its time. The Book of Mormon doesn’t account for more than two groups that migrated to the U.S., but we know, for example, that ancient Chinese settlements have been found in New Mexico and Arizona approx. 3,300 years ago. In addition, 1,000 year-old Viking relics have been discovered in Florida. These findings have been well-documented, but Book of Mormon claims leave us stymied because it leaves a great deal to the imagination. Take Cumorah Hill for example. The BoM mentions a great battle there that resulted in many thousands killed. There is no trace of any such struggle in the region. The BoM alludes to great ancient civilizations in north America, but why is there no trace of them? I describe a “great” civilization as one like Greece, Rome, Turkey or Mesopotamia that made significant advances in building, language, the arts and culture. In the U.S., we have nothing equivalent to those great cultures. The mound builders of the U.S. were a primitive “civilization” at best. Lastly, if the BoM was partially intended for the American Indians, Mormons would have to admit failure because it wasn’t accepted in large numbers, and still isn’t. Obviously, Native Americans had difficulty identifying with the BoM because it’s from a different cultural reference point.
Ferd I forgot to add this you stated that there was no evidence for the battles in the Book of Mormon. I would disagree. Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites. In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15). New York State: “It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849) Kentucky: “Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153) New York State: “The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849) Illinois: “Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of… Read more »
Your idea of what constitutes a “mass burial pit” must be very different from mine. Also, if a quarter of a million “Nephites” were killed at Cumorah Hill, and “untold number” of “Lamanites” were killed there also, it’s only logical to conclude that we should be able to find a great many skeletal remains, but it’s not there. Sure, the mound builders buried their people there, but we have not come across anything approaching the magnitude suggested by the BoM account. Now, it’s fine to quote native legends, but don’t assume they’re all true or that they all got their oral history right. Do you know any Native American creation stories? If not, read a few of them and tell me if you can believe in everything you read. All the sources you refer to here are circa 1840’s, before archeology was an established science. When we use terms like “mass burials,” it means hundreds if not thousands of bodies. Yes, we’ve come across skeletal remains in all the places you mention, but we don’t find any evidence of a great conflagration, no holocaust, no mass burials of any great size. These pioneer references you quote are approaching 200 years. If you were a diligent student of history, you would have tried to include some contemporary research on these alleged findings to ascertain their value. I don’t doubt we have some ancient bones laying around. I just don’t see any convincing evidence of mass killings/burials on any large scale.
First of all these were not pioneers but farmers. Squier himself did work for the Smithsonian. Also I was going by what was stated in the Book of Mormon Mormon 2:15 states that the bodies were heaped up as dung. I see that as piles of bodies. Squier found one pile was that was six feet deep and base 30 feet others found bones everywhere on there farm lands that works for me I’m sorry it does not work for you.
Second there was once 60 million buffalo that were wiped because the government wanted to destroy the major food source for Native Americans. Under your thinking this never happened because there are not 60 million buffalo bones out in the prairies and the records of this happening are really old.
Thank you for sharing this tidbit of information. It explains what farmers must have done when they found the piles of human bones and bone pits found on their farmlands. They used it as fertilizer.
Dear Ferd Have you ever at seen the extent of the Cahokia Mounds they estimate over a million people lived in the surrounding environs I’ve been to the Etowah Mounds in Georgia near Atlanta and on top of the biggest Mound you can see the city of Atlanta which is miles away that complex is one of the small ones farmers and whites have consistently and persistently destroyed and erased evidence of the great civilizations that existed in America pre Columbus and we’re just now starting to realize that they were much more technologically advanced than we gave them credit for you sound like someone that espouses manifest destiny. Manifest Destiny is what destroyed the evidence of great native civilizations in North America. I am a proud Cherokee and we have a great oral tradition that goes back many hundreds of years I’ve walked Fort Mountain Georgia where there are stone fortifications that there is no explanation for we also have a legend of the Nunehe which talks about the moon eyed people a light skin light haired people look at SCHELIEMAN! Troy was just a legend but he found it any did it weigh before modern archaeology was founded I think all that we’re asking that you do is keep an open mind schliemann did and he found Troy! every Legend so far has been proved to have some bit of Truth in it and some as we found out or all truth and besides the science of the… Read more »
” It explains what farmers must have done when they found the piles of human bones and bone pits found on their farmlands. They used it as fertilizer.”
No David, what it demonstrates is that the disappearance of the bison bones is well documented and accounted for. The disappearance of those bones cannot be used in an argument to claim that Book of Mormon battle victims’ bones likewise disappeared. There was no industry or machinery used to grind “piles of human bones” into fertilizer. The quantity of human bones found on farmlands is in no way comparable to the bison bones. And the quantity of human remains and the evidence on those bones of injuries causing death do not support the Book of Mormon’s claims of millions being killed in battle.
There is absolutely no evidence that human bones were collected by the agricultural industry to be ground up and used for fertilizer by early farmers and settlers. There is absolutely no evidence that a quantity of human bones was found in the United States on a magnitude even comparable to the numbers of bison bones, deposited in a short interval of time comparable to the slaughter of the bison. And there is absolutely no evidence in the archaeology of human remains in pre-contact United States of war deaths on a scale described in the Book of Mormon. So I can’t disagree with you on “how the evidence presents itself” because that evidence just isn’t even there.
Why is it that If some ancient objects look fraudulent then all objects are concidered fraudulent.. I consider that fraud it self to classify objects as fraud without investigating all thousands of Michigan tablets. David A Deal was able to decipher one tablet calendar with a date of 352AD based on astronomical events on the tablet and NASA. Is that not evidence? So the Michigan tablets can’t all be fraud if some evidence is for. By the way they are not the only tablets and writing found in america. Los Lunas stone, burrows cave, and other found in Indiana and Ohio.
David, the fact is that the Michigan relic you believe to be from Bountiful, depicting a person on a cross, is a verified hoax artifact. Even the LDS church does not consider it legitimate. Why is it when I am discussing a specific known fraudulent artifact you keep trying to bring up other objects? Lets stick to that one Michigan relic, that one depicting a person on a cross.
I do not know who posted the above post but it was not me. He might be confusing the mayan calendar with North American artifacts.
As far as the Michigan relics Alex Koritz did a podcast about the relics. He is probably less biased than I am. He is LDS but sounds like he doesn’t believe fundamental truth claims and he has a different opinion about the origin of the relics. There are also other links that show some of the artifacts from personal collections.
This comment is for the Dave who posted July 8, 2016 at 11:43 pm. which I now understand is not David McKane. ” David A Deal was able to decipher one tablet calendar with a date of 352AD based on astronomical events on the tablet and NASA. Is that not evidence? ” No, it is not evidence. David Allen Deal did not decipher anything, he made an imaginative attempt and his claim was not valid, nor supported by any credible scholars. David Allen Deal was not an archaeologist nor a linguist. He also wrote a book claiming that Noah’s ark had been found, and that find was completely debunked by scholars. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the best evidence that the Michigan relics are not authentic is the fact that the church had ownership of 797 of these hoax objects from 1974 until 2003, when they were given to the Michigan Historical Museum. One of those given away by the church was the tablet depicting a person on a cross. You can see a photo of that relic in this link, the photo taken by David Allen Deal when the tablet was in the church archives. http://www.ensignmessage.com/christinusa.html This fact creates many difficulties for those members who want the Michigan relics to be real. Why would the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have such a profound piece of evidence as that tablet depicting the crucifixion and then just give it away to a museum that… Read more »
My experience is that all of the churches anthropologist and Book of Mormon experts at FAIR and the Neal A Maxwell Institute are Meso American apologist. The last thing these guys want to do is come to the conclusion that their life’s work, education, books, and job to try and prove the Book of Mormon happened in Meso America was a big waste of money and time. That would be hard to swallow.
Seems they have put too much into trying to make the Book of Mormon fit with 21st century knowledge but ended up painting themselves into a corner. They had to discount and disregard Joseph Smith’s own words and twist the writings in the Book of Mormon into something they don’t say. They went against the cautions that Joseph Fielding Smith gave about two Cumorahs and have ended up causing a division in the membership of the church over something as simple as where the stories were supposed to have happened.
It really should just be on faith. Like I said, Moroni’s promise should be enough. In my youth the apostles and prophets promoted a hemispheric model, where the major events happened in the region of the United States but all indigenous peoples of the Americas were from Book of Mormon peoples. Now it isn’t even the same church.
So like I said, I can meet you half way with the stories intended to have been in regions of the United States, even though I no longer believe them. I just get disappointed when known hoaxes are used to try to prop things up.
To me, faith and reason should be able to come together to form a body of truth and information that is edifying on intellectual and spiritual levels. I know of certain books that provide that to me in great measure, but the Book of Mormon (as far as I’m concerned) hasn’t come anywhere close to supplying me with the satisfaction of knowing that what I’m reading is solid on all fronts. So when someone talks about having faith in something like the Book of Revelation or a “promise of Moroni,” I am skeptical. First, the Book of Revelation has been reinterpreted hundreds of times to fit a multitude of situations, and a “promise” from an “angel” from a book that’s loaded with errors doesn’t (to me) deserve my faith, a faith built in part on reason and research I can lay my hands on. Furthermore, I don’t think the premise of this blog is being especially honest, where Mr. McKane says that he’s not interested in defending the Book of Mormon, but is here to bolster the books’ viewpoint on controversial migration issues that only Mormons believe. Mormon “scholarship” as best as I can tell, depends largely on digging up long out-of-date and discarded ideas, recycling and repackaging them. But all this does is build on conspiracy theory which is neither honest or scientific.
Huh That David Allen Deal stuff is interesting I had not heard about that till now. You make a good point I would say anything that does not support accepted theories about world migration and culture gets thrown out. And especially evidence that argues against it is looked at with revulsion.
Those things get thrown out for good reason. The accepted position of scholars is based on evidence and facts. Hoax artifacts aren’t considered hoaxes simply because they are contrary to the position of scholars, they are determined to be hoaxes based on evidence. In the case of the Michigan relics, the evidence is overwhelming that they are hoaxes. Same with the Burroughs cave, Los Lunas Decalogue, Newark Decalogue, etc.The mainstream consensus of scholars can change, but it takes considerable evidence that is credible. There is no credible evidence for Hebrews in ancient America. Without that, the consensus cannot be changed.
My concern with Mormonism and hoax artifacts is that presenting them as evidence misleads members and can actually destroy faith when someone who really wants the truth begins studying from reputable and credible journals of science and learns that pseudo-archaeology is filled with hoaxes. Moroni’s promise should be enough. Nothing is really gained in the long term by propping up as evidence objects that are not real.
David McKane, you and I do share some things in common. Your position that the Book of Mormon stories happened in regions of the United States and not Mesoamerica is something that I can meet you half-way on. Even though I no longer believe the Book of Mormon and have left the church, I do maintain that Joseph Smith intended it to be about the American Indians in the United States.
You keep focusing on ” hoax” artifacts. You white wash all the Hopewell and Adena artifacts. Hopewell and Adena civilization are not a hoax neither are their artifacts fitting the scriptural narrative. With the name of tapir rider I doubt you have a healthy concern about members faith. I found the controversial artifacts to be very interesting. But the research was over one hundred pages and all you focus on is a couple sentences. Your focus on this is interesting. You do not need to worry about people’s faith. Anybody who based their sole activity in the church on physical evidence for the Book of Mormon are inactive or have left the church. The tbm who are left don’t care about physical evidence or a sign that the Book of Mormon is true. What matters to them is the purpose of the Book of Mormon. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to draw people to Christ. You can’t take that away from them neither can physical evidence even though now the physical evidence is more supportive of the Book of Mormon than it detracts away from it. Trust me I get depressed when I see tbm yawn when I share my passion and research with them. For them Book of Mormon brings them closer to god and that is all that matters. The thousands of controversial artifacts some have estimates as high as 30000 (not my estimate) are compelling and for those who are interested in this type… Read more »
David, there is no need at all to use any known hoax artifacts. This has nothing to do with whitewashing all of the authentic artifacts. None of those provide any support for claims of ancient Hebrews in the Americas. Seeing them for what they really are offers no evidence for the Book of Mormon. For LDS members, there should be no need for any pseudoarchaeology or claims that challenge the consensus of science. But what I have seen with some LDS members are claims of conspiracies by scientists to hide evidence and claims of evidence that do not hold up. Wayne May’s use of the Michigan relics as well as many other unreliable claims made by him and others are nothing but garbage. The Book of Mormon should stand on its own, Moroni’s promise should be enough. But there are members who present trash to offer in support of it. Some have even intentionally and dishonestly misrepresented scientists. These things can in fact can be harmful to individual LDS members who are searching for truth. It is a bitter pill to swallow when one wants to believe what others offer in support of evidence, only to find it is based on lies and known hoaxes. And what does the other side of the geography debate have to offer? Mesoamerica? That requires disregarding Joseph Smith’s own words, even re-interpreting statements about Lamanites in the Doctrine and Covenants. It also requires admitting that General Conference teachings from the apostles Mark E. Peterson… Read more »
um…not a Mormon but would like to point out that A: LDS church didn’t own the Michigan tablets a private family did and does. The LED church and the owning family were told that they were go in to be researched by their top researchers and experts so they naturally agreed. Obviosly they were bambuzooled by an archeology department.…not a shock or surprise. Hall break into the 4th basment of the Smithsonian and you’ll see millions of artifacts they conned people out of to keep under the wraps of main stream brainwashing. B: the only reason the Michigan tablets were and are considered hoaxes by mainstream dogmatic is the metal tools that were used to make them. well metal tools have been found coast to coast and border to border. Mohawks had steel bows when we showed up…the colonists noted that their bows shot arrows further and fastwe than their muzzle loaders. I would also like to point out to the gentleman that continues to state that there was no advanced civilization in north America prior to the Europeans… that is insainly ignorant. Just your munk mound is a 2 full acres larger in base than the Giza Pyramid. Surpant mount need more death moved than Pharos Canal.…ancient Suez.…. well and speaking of canals obviously you’ve researched the Ortone park canal system in Florida. Or the Grand Terre island canal system or the Hohokum Rover Canal system in the Phoenix area. I’m asuming our friend is not American , we… Read more »
For many years, I’ve studied the origins of the Book of Mormon. The method by which it was received continues to look extremely flimsy in my opinion. Being a descendant of Luman Walters, I’ve read his notes that strongly suggest that the Smith’s were just good at making things up. I could go on.
Hi. Your model requires the fresh water great lakes to be seas. Seas are not fresh water. If every word in the Book of Mormon can be redefined to something else, then we could easily have a model on the moon. The only model I know of that does not continually redefine words is the South American model where the Amazon basin was underwater before Christ. Here is the best current blog on it: http://nephicode.blogspot.com/
Well Heber, Generally in America you would be correct. But in other places around the world such as Israel where Lehi is from. A sea can refer to a fresh body of water such as the SEA of Galilee.
You are implying that the ancient mind couldn’t tell the difference between a large body of fresh water like a lake and a saline sea. For this to be true, you’d have to provide documentation. Like for instance, wherever a body of water is mentioned in the Bible (Sea of Galilee, Great Sea, Waters of Merom, etc, etc), did the author err in describing it as a salt or fresh water body?
The ancients new the difference between salt water and fresh water the word sea as currently used in Eurasia and in the bible can refer to either or.
I like the article and suggest anyone who want lean more about the native people to read their books. A good one is “To the American Indian: Reminiscences of Yurkok Woman” She talks about the wa-gas people that lived in Northern California on the Kalamith River before the Native Americans arrived. She said these ancient white people had inhabited the whole contentment and where friendly and nice people but left somewhere up north. And let’s not forget the Cherokee who’s oral history has them coming from Israel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMT0MePKRf8). The problem I have with the current theories of the mound builders is when you read the old books they talk about the Hopewell and Adena as a very sophisticated culture Which is different than the current belief that they were hunter gathers. In the book Prehistoric Men of Kentucky by Col. Bennet A. Young he give account the Shawnee Indian war on extermination of the white mound builders that these people had a sophistication not known to Indians. See below: Col. James Moore, of Kentucky, was told by an old Indian that the primitive inhabitants of this state had perished in a war of extermination waged against them by the Indians; that the last great battle was fought at the Falls of the Ohio, (Clarksville Indiana); and that the Indians succeeded in driving the aborigines into a small island below the rapids, ‘where the whole of them were cut to pieces’. The colonel was assured that the evidence of this event rested… Read more »
The hopewell were very sophisticated they had metal weapons, jewelry, breast plates, head plates, made their own woven cloth clothing, they had a advanced trade system that stretched thousands of miles, they were agriculturist and built fortifications as described in the Book of Mormon.
The Michigan relics likewise are a known hoax. The LDS church commissioned a study of them and determined they were not real. LDS Apostle James Talmage announced that they were a hoax. This determination still holds today.
Your comment is out of place. Concerning the Michigan Relics its estimated that there are over 10000 artifacts that were found throughout Michigan that are considered fake because of cuneiform and Egyptian like characters on them. Some of the tablet artifacts showed biblical depictions.
Although I do mention the Michigan relics and say that they are believed to be fake. I do not use any of the Michigan relic artifacts as evidence so your point is baseless.
No, it isn’t out of place. You said “So did the mound builder art or degree of sophistication include metallurgy, sun dial, calendars, and star charts? All the item found that where considered fraudulent artifacts by most scholars (search Michigan artifacts). Was this sophistication just bows and arrows?”
Instead of just mentioning that most scholars considered the Michigan relics fraudulent, you might consider pointing out that the LDS church found them to be fake and has not changed its position on that.
You also said “(and Tennessee also is associated with Kentucky in prehistoric ethnography by Rafinesque)”. Rafinesque’s work was a fake too.
Dave, please be careful with using known hoaxes in trying to make your points.
The items I quote are confirmed by modern archeology. “The hopewell were very sophisticated they had metal weapons, jewelry, breast plates, head plates, made their own woven cloth clothing, they had a advanced trade system that stretched thousands of miles, they were agriculturist and built fortifications” I do not know if hopewell Indians used star charts or a calendar. My guess is that they used the same lunar calendar that native Americans used. Which according to historical accounts the Native American calendar is the same if not very similar as the Hebrew calendar. It’s confirmed by modern archeology that the Hopewell made metal breastplates etc. Its been estimated that about 3/4 of a billion pounds of copper were mined by prehistoric native Americans to include the hopewell and the adena. I would call that advanced and I believe all archeologist who studied the Hopewell extensively consider them advance also. If you have any questions let me know.
Dave, my points are about the Michigan relics and Constantine Rafinesque’s fraudulent work and your reference to these things while discussing the Hopewell culture and the Book of Mormon.
The fact that these objects are frauds does not undermine the authenticity of real Hopewell artifacts and culture, nor does it threaten the Book of Mormon. But attempts by some LDS members to suggest that the Michigan relics and/or Rafinesque’s fraudulent work are authentic misleads away from truth.
Tapir You have no clue what you are talking about. The Hopewell artifacts I display are from museums. The one from books I list the source. If you have any questions as to authenticity of any museum displayed artifact let me know which one and I will let you know which museum it is displayed. As far as pictured artifacts from books I have the list see below.
Dave, I am talking about your false and misleading statements concerning the Michigan artifacts and Constantine Rafinesque’s fraudulent work.
You stated “16 runestones found in North America are generally believed to be fake. These runestones have what appears to be Hebrew, Phoenician, and Greek-like characters. These are the Bat Creek Stone, AVM Runestone, Bourne stone, Grave Creek Stone, Heavener Runestone, Kensington Runestone, Narragansett Runestone, Oklahoma runestones, Poteau Runestone, Spirit Pond runestones, Vérendrye Runestone, Shawnee Runestone, Ohio Key stone, Ohio Decalogue stone, The Jonson Bradner stone, and the Michigan Tablets. The generally-accepted, but unfounded theory behind these runestones is that 19th and 20th century farmers and citizens had an insatiable desire to make fake Indian paleo Hebrew, Greek and Phoenician like artifacts and had the ability to do so. Neither of those assertions are supported by facts.”
That statement is in error because the facts do support the conclusion that the Michigan artifacts were faked and that those who did it had the ability to do so.
You need to be careful in what you claim is real.
I stand behind my claim. The idea that two people would make over 10000 artifacts and spread them all over Michigan I find ridiculous and that is just Michigan.
Elder James E. Talmage was a rare apostle of the LDS church. One of his published works (he was a co-author) was while he was an apostle. It was in a non-LDS, peer reviewed, academic journal and was on the subject of the Michigan relics. It is well worth reading. The Michigan Archaeological Question Settled, by Frederick Starr, J.O. Kinnaman, and James E. Talmage, published in The American Antiquarian and Oriental Journal 33, no. 3, 1911 https://books.google.com/books?id=B8oaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false You might want to consider that the Michigan relics do not number over 10,000 artifacts, the true count is somewhere around 3,000. Also, the so-called “16 runestones” you wrote about have all been likewise found to be hoaxes. And your claim of “3/4 of a billion pounds of copper were mined by prehistoric native Americans” is also an error that comes from pseudoarchaeology sources. The State of Our Knowledge About Ancient Copper Mining in Michigan The Michigan Archaeologist 41(2–3):119–138. Susan R. Martin 1995 http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html I stand by my position that hoax artifacts were quite common in the 19th century, far more common than you seem to grasp. The actual archaeological evidence of the Hopewell culture has nothing to do with ancient Hebrews in America. Instead, it has everything to do with a most incredible people who developed in their own ways with their own cultures, isolated from the Old World cultures and technologies. They even accomplishing an independent domestication of plants, one of only a handful throughout the world, which formed an agricultural base that did… Read more »
3000 artifacts are possessed by museums. It’s estimated that over 9000 artifacts are owned by private collectors.
This argument has been pointless the point of my essay and research is not about the Michigan relics it has been about the confirmed artifacts and clothing, the metal weapons and tools that fit the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon animals that went extinct in Hopewell lands. Native American DNA from Israel and Iran that is not found in Siberia or east or Central Asia. Hopewell fortifications that match Book of Mormon descriptions and the BoM timeline. Historical accounts of Native American beliefs burial methods and artifacts that match the Old Testament and Bom Narrative. The Michigan relics discussion is a waste of time.
Dave, if your estimate of over 9000 relics is in reference to those with inscriptions suggesting ancient Hebrews were in the Americas, then your estimate is flat out wrong. The forgeries known as the Scotford-Soper-Savage collection, made by two people, does not and has never had that many. At most, only about 3,000 hoax artifacts were fabricated by them. You said “The idea that two people would make over 10000 artifacts and spread them all over Michigan I find ridiculous and that is just Michigan.” The facts are working against you.
You said “This argument has been pointless the point of my essay and research is not about the Michigan relics”
Dave, it is crucial to be accurate and use reliable information if you want your points to be believable. You are using known hoax artifacts and making erroneous claims about them. This is damaging to your case and is not a pointless argument, nor is it a waste of time..
“The one I find the most interesting are the Michigan relics in the geography map Michigan is the land bountiful. It is also the city that Christ visited. In the Michigan relics there is a depiction of a person on a cross. I think the the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful.” https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑1/#comment-72
Then you tell me “This argument has been pointless the point of my essay and research is not about the Michigan relics”. It would be pointless if you were not mentioning them and making claims about them. But you are the one using them in your essay and comments. It is not pointless and out of place to discuss fraudulent hoax artifacts when they are presented as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
To Tapir Rider’s point, Dave, if you don’t feel strongly that these Michigan relics are important to your model, perhaps it makes sense to remove or strike them since they appear to be at least mostly a proven hoax.
The generally accepted theory behind these runestones is that 19th and 20th century farmers and citizens had an insatiable desire to make fake Indian paleo Hebrew, Greek and Phoenician like artifacts and had the ability to do so. I find this problematic.
Nothing pictured in my essay are from the Michigan relics. If you want to know from which museum the artifacts are from let me know they are all Hopewell artifacts except for Arlington Mallory he claimed the iron slag he found was from an Adena site. There artifact depictions from older books from the early 20th 18th 17th and 16th century sources are claimed by the authors to be found in mound builder sites.
David, I’m not talking about pictures. I have clearly explained and shown with your own quotes what you have said about the Michigan relics. They are, in fact, hoax artifacts.
I am talking about what you have said about the Michigan relics, not the pictures that YOU are referring to. David, you said:
“The one I find the most interesting are the Michigan relics in the geography map Michigan is the land bountiful. It is also the city that Christ visited. In the Michigan relics there is a depiction of a person on a cross. I think the the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful.” https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑1/#comment-72
David, the Michigan relics are hoax artifacts. The one with a depiction of a person on a cross is not from the Hopewell culture. It is a forgery. You should rethink your position that the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful. They are not. They are fraudulent fabrications and do not support the Book of Mormon.
Joe S
8 years ago
David.…Keep trusting the spirit. Your doing it the right way. My wife and I just spent a full 12 hour day at a Book of Mormon Symposium with Rod Meldrum, Bruce Porter, Ryan Fisher, Wayne May and others. I love the testimony I have of the Book of Mormon Lands here in the Promised Land. Pretty much any member you ask who has a testimony of the Heartland model knew within minutes this is the Promised Land, not MesoAmerica. I’ve only been active in the church a couple years, I’m in my 50’s and grew up believing MesoAmerica was where the Book of Mormon took place. I try to let members know who are trying to Google there way to the truth to remember, the Heartland model here in 2016 has given their rebuttle and evidence to everything the old FARMS, who BYU fired in 2012, then became the Interpreter and now call themselves Book of Mormon Central has thrown at them. Beware of reading 9 out of 10 old lies and attacks on the Heartland model. Go to FIRMLDS.ORG and Bookofmormonevidence. com to find the Heartland truth and what they present to dispell those lies. I’ll end it with just one of 1,000ss of side bits of truth. The first Bible in the United States was translated in the Algonquian Native American language in 1663 and taught to the Algonquian speaking Tribes. Fast forward to the moment the Book of Mormon was hot off the press in the 1800’s, the… Read more »
This is how I would respond to your model. The God of the Old Testament is a ridiculous God; why try to connect Native Americans to Him? Why continue to believe that God “cursed” Lamanites with dark skin? That’s just plain barbaric and racist. Native Americans on both continents of North and South America, have a rich history WITHOUT being connected to Israel and the nomadic myths and tales of the Old Testament. It just doesn’t make any logical sense to even try to connect them. So few people believe in the God of the Old Testament any more, any way, and Mormonism’s attempts to try to connect Jesus and Jehovah and the Native Americans is silly. Think of it, God cursing people with dark skin? What kind of God is that?
Kevin I think you and many lds members misunderstand what the curse is. The curse has nothing to do with physical skin color.The curse is separation from God and becoming a wicked people and committing all kinds of atrocities. The mark as mentioned in the Book of Mormon is also mentioned which does refer to physical appearance but the mark is neutral. In the case of the Amlicites they were once Nephites and rebelled and became wicked. They were wicked and cursed. It does not say god changed their skin color. But in order to distinguish themselves from the Nephites they put red on their foreheads. Alma 3:13 13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads By making this physical mark on their foreheads. They fulfilled the other part of the promise the mark, but notice that it was not a change of skin color but the mark on the forehead that fulfilled this part. Which a mark can be anything that distinguishes themselves from Gods people. Alma 3:18 18 Now the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads; nevertheless they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them. In this next verses it talks about the curse which is separation… Read more »
David: I think you just cut and pasted this reply from my little tidbit on the LDS Church’s Indian Placement Program and the Bundy takeover in Eastern Oregon. It would be nice to have a real discussion with you. Please see my reply in the other posting, and remember that the plain and simple reading of the Book of Mormon as read by your former prophets, was that the curse was dark skin and that by living righteously, like converting to the gospel through the Indian Placement Program, the Native Americans would become white and delightsome. See Spencer W. Kimball October 1960 general conference address.
Sean H
9 years ago
I’ve gone through this process before, although I don’t think I put as much thought into it. There is a reason why the Hopewell Tradition matches up reasonably well, except for the huge disparity on time frames.
These are the remains that Joe was used to encountering and were the inspiration for his book.
Hopewell timeline is 500BC (Crystal River Florida Hopewell) to 400–500AD
Book of Mormon Timeline 600BC to 421AD. The beginning of the Hopewell timeline is off by about 100 years but it allows Lehi and his small group to make a archaeological footprint.
I use science as my evidence. There are disparities but I think the disparities will be worked out through more evidence.
Brent
9 years ago
You can’t start with the conclusion that the BOM is true and then move all the pieces around to make it fit your preconceived conclusion. That’s the opposite of science.
Candice
9 years ago
Just makes me sad you are so desperate to prove a fictitious story. So much of life wasted on researching a fake storyline.
I see dna, archaeological, linguistic, geographical, cultural, and artifacts as evidence. Ultimately physical evidence does not matter because a spiritual witness trumps all. But that being said I stand behind the evidence and theories being presented. Feel free to point out holes in my theories I’m willing to defend to defend each and everyone.
If it all comes down to faith, why did you create this document? Seems antithetical to seek proof of something you believe requires faith to be real.
I’m not trying to prove the Book of Mormon is true. What I’m doing is providing my opinion based on the archaeological, dna, cultural, linguistic and geographical research of where I think the geographic locations of where the Book of Mormon took place. If correct I think the theories and research provided can help people understand the Book of Mormon from a geographical and archaeological standpoint. If correct I think it helps to understand what Nephite cloth, metal Jewelry, metal breast plates, metal head plates, and other Nephite artifacts look like.
Also and probably most importantly I enjoy during research in this area.
How do you know it’s fake are you an archaeologist are you an expert I think David’s got more experience than you do bring up something valid instead of just attacking our faith I’m Native American and also a proud member of the LDS Church
The first section 1–6 does not apply to me but to Meldrum but I will say I think this guy makes some very juvenile criticisms.
In the second section 7–10 I quote Joseph Smith vision about Zelph. Zelph is not mentioned in this section nor does anything else apply to me and what I have used.
Section C I addressed in a previous comment 11. I stated that all the runestones were considered fake. The characters found on the runestones have been compared to Greek, Hebrew, and Phoenician. What I disagreed with was that I don’t believe early 19th and 18th century settlers would have been capable of forging paleo Hebrew, Greek, and Phoenician characters. 12–13 N/A
22. There is no specific verse that says Sidon ran south to North. How mesoamerican apologist say sidon ran south to north is incoherent and convoluted.
23 In my model sidon flows into South sea I sea no issue there. From what I can tell BOM never states which sea Sidon flowed into nor does it state it flowed into multiple seas.
24–34 applys to meldrums model not mine.
35–39 N/A While I do quote Joseph Smith I do not quote other LDS leaders.
This is frankly some of the worst “history” I have ever read. If you are going to make claims that there are iron swords, elephants, horses, and chariots, you better provide some serious citations. For instance, in response I could post this interview with a Yale professor on book of mormon archeology. http://mormonstories.org/michael-coe-an-outsiders-view-of-book-of-mormon-archaeology/. Your friend would most likely claim that the subject of that interview is mesoamerica and not North America, but if you listen to the interview that’s because the only even remotely “arguable” (I use this in the broadest sense because the book of mormon is entirely made up) location for the book of mormon is mesoamerica.
If this is the worst history you have ever seen you should have no problem disproving the evidence. Keep in mind though the sources cited from early historians and settlers excluding archaeological sites have been used to write the entire history of the Native American People.
I stated that all the runestones were considered fake. The characters found on the runestones have been compared to Greek, Hebrew, and Phoenician. What I disagreed with was that I don’t believe early 19th and 18th century settlers would have been capable of forging paleo Hebrew, Greek, and Phoenician characters.
curious_mormon
9 years ago
A couple of big problems with this.
Joseph Smith claims there were only two great migrations to the American continents.
Group 1: The Jaredites. They depend on a literal tower of babel, and they needed to all die save two men, fulfilling prophecy.
Group 2: The Lehites. They needed to show up around 600 BC, but the Hopewell existed at least 100–200 years prior to that in Florida. To put this into perspective, that’s like claiming men landed on the moon around the time of the revolutionary war. It’s wrong.
Even the church essays admit there is no DNA connection. The hopewell graves that were dug up do not match Jewish DNA that traces their lineage back to David. Instead, they’re linked to the cherokee which goes back to nearly 1800 BC.
And that’s just a start. We could also talk about the Tower of Babel, the lack of artifacts specifically stated in the Book (since you now claim to know who they are, you’d expect to see 2000 year old wheels or European swords — hint: you don’t). Lack of warfare around hill cumorah, specifically the destruction of half the entire eastern United States gathered around a 2–3 mile radius. I could go on, but I think you get the point.
TL;DR: We get it. The Hopewell timeline almost matches up with the Book of Mormon timeline (+/- a few hundred years). That doesn’t make this people the mythical Nephites, nor does it mean you can ignore everything else to push that conclusion.
There were three migrations the Lehites, Jaredites, and Mulekites. The Jaredites and Lehites kept written records the Mulekites did not.
The Hopewell Indians at Crystal River date to 500BC that gives Lehi and his family about 100 years to make a archaeological footprint completely reasonable in my opinion. Crystal river is next to the ocean so its also geographical match.
Early settlers found bones everywhere in the New York area. And Indians in that area have a belief about a ancient and great and bloody battle that took place.
For me I see enough artifacts to support the claims made in the Book of Mormon.
The Great Lake Native American haplo group x is most closely related to the Israeli Druze of Galilee
“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”
If you look at the Parsimony tree you will see the Ojibwa are in a direct line with the Israeli Druze.
As to why the tribe of Manasseh (Lehi’s tribe) is not a Jewish marker is probably because the tribe of Manasseh fell away from Hebrew beliefs due to Assyrian rule and occupation as explained in the Old Testament and ancient history. See the section about chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce tribe.
The one I find the most interesting are the Michigan relics in the geography map Michigan is the land bountiful. It is also the city that Christ visited. In the Michigan relics there is a depiction of a person on a cross. I think the the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful. Here is a link to the story about the Michigan relics.
Hello, My name is Angela. I am glad that someone has put this site up. I am a convert to the church. The first time that the spirit testified to me was when I was told the Book of Mormon was a history of the Native Americans here on this continent and that Jesus Christ came to visit them. The moment I heard this I knew I was hearing truth and I knew the things that I felt were not coincidence and that The Savior had not forgotten us and I knew he loved us and I knew what I had felt since I was a child was true. I am pale skinned and schoolmates growing up teased me when I said I was Indian, I learned more of my family tree and found that I was Native from many lines, Cherokee, Shawnee, and Fox, and Wyandotte and more. I have always felt something that I couldn’t explain as if there are times that I can hear an energy from within but from God calling me to do something. When I learned that Jesus visited the native Americans on this Continent I knew the Gospel was true instantly because I could hear that call, as if I were being called home. and when I learned about Joseph Smith I did not trust him instantly in fact I was afraid but since I knew that the book of mormon was true and I knew that if I asked God He would answer me.… Read more »
This will be my last post on this site and I’m sure that will please the LDS crowd. As soon as I finish I will unsubscribe. My interest in the LDS began in the late 1960s when a couple missionaries came to my house to spread the word. After two visits, I politely told them that I didn’t wish to continue because the presentation didn’t grab me. I remember reading the so-called “promise of Moroni” (as missionaries are apt to mark it up in Book of Mormon free copies), and thought it to be a rather vague and weak statement, not an especially good verse for recruiting new believers. So a few days passed and I received a call from the LDS church office, as they wanted to set up a baptism date for me. A little outraged (because I gave no indication of wanting to join), I hung up on the caller. Soon thereafter, the two missionaries where seen back at my house, knocking at the door. I very quietly slithered away into the back room and ignored the knocking as best as I could. They stood out there for at least 10 minutes knocking, and said a couple times loudly, “We know you’re in there.” I’ve told this story to a number of Mormons through the years and have been told that missionaries used a more aggressive method back in the 60s and 70s. Based on this early encounter, I began reading the Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants,… Read more »
to David McKane
The buffalo dodge is an attempt to change the subject. Obviously buffalo were killed and there’s plenty of proof of it, not just because of skeletal remains but because we have reports from many sources; Indians, government officials, bystanders, newspapers, landowners, etc. etc. The 600 million figure might be hyped a bit, however. Every major civilization has left a great deal of physical evidence to sift through. Only an imaginary civilization can get by without leaving traces of any major structures, edifices, etc. In my collection of books on mound builders in Illinois, (published by Illinois University Press) the most impressive structures I’ve seen are cattle stockades and some meandering trenches. The U.S. was never home to amazing structures like those found in ancient Turkey, Iran, Greece, Rome or Egypt. Are you suggesting they’re here, but we just haven’t dug it up yet?
I meant 60 million not 600. Ferd I think you are losing focus of what is important here. The advanced culture of the Hopewell as described by anthropologist and archeologist match up with what is described in the Book of Mormon. It’s not a comparison of other world civilizations or which civilizations are more advanced. The Hopewell breastplates, structures, cloth, highways, head plates, agriculture, timeline, jewelry, weapons and trade match up with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon states that the Nephites used mounds of earth. Well guess what so did the mound builders (Hopewell). Mounds of earth may not be impressive to you but it’s a perfect match for the Nephites to include all their artifacts. If you have a problem with the term advanced take that up with the anthropologist I think they would disagree with you. As far as the sources that I used they are used by historian’s anthropologist and archeologist.
“The monumental architecture and artifacts of the Hopewell Culture reflect a pinnacle of achievement in the fields of art, astronomy, mathematics and engineering, the likes of which was seldom seen again in eastern North America.”
“Two thousand years ago, people of an advanced culture gathered here (Chillicothe) to
conduct religious rituals and ceremonies related to their society.”
https://www.nps.gov/hocu/planyourvisit/upload/HMG-Site-Bulletin-2010-NON-EN.pdf
Borrowing modern research of others, then trying to make it look like an “ancient” book recorded these things long ago is a technique used by certain novelists like Philip K. Dick. “Cryptoscatology” is a style of writing not too unlike historical fiction that bases the story on known facts and urban legends and injects a conspiracy theory that’s half way plausible. I see the BoM in a similar light. For instance, everyone in J. Smith’s time knew something about the presence of ancient Indians in the area, but their basic ignorance of specifics fueled wild speculation, including the idea that the American Indians were of the lost tribe of Israel. And prior to Smith’s interest in such things, there were a number of popular books in circulation promoting the idea that ancient Israelites once flourished in North America. The basic difference between these pre BoM writings and the BoM is the attempt to make the BoM appear like an ancient relic as it invokes King James verbiage. I could go on. Let me pick apart one item here, the Adena culture, as I see no obvious BoM “match.” First of all, I beg to differ with your description of mound builders being “highly sophisticated.” There is ample proof that many of these people practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism. With the Adena folk, their sphere of influence didn’t rise to the level of “civilization” as you infer. Furthermore, the clay tablets you refer contain no cuneiform inscriptions suggesting anything that looks… Read more »
If Joseph Smith plagiarized from the archeological and native American traditions he got a lot of things right including things he could not have known about. The Hopewell tradition which the majority of North American theorist believe are the Nephites and Adena being the Jaredites. The Hopewell timeline matches the Book of Mormon. The Adena end is close to but the BOM does not give a very specific period for end of the Jaredites. The Hopewell had advanced technology such as the making of breastplates and metal working. Modern anthropologist have tried to make breastplates in the same manner they believe the Hopewell did. And even with modern presses have not replicated them. The made their own cloth clothing. Had an advanced trade system with highways that stretched for thousands miles. Obsidian found at Hopewell sites are chemically traced back to sites in the Rocky Mountains. Jaguar teeth found in Indiana are from Mexico or central America. They were agriculturist. They made old world style fortifications. Haplo group x dna which they do have originated in the middle east and North Africa region. Native American haplo group x dna is not found in Siberia east or central Asia something Joseph Smith did not know about. The Book of Mormon states there were two advanced cultures during Book of Mormon timeline. In North America you have two advanced cultures that fit during this period. All of this fits the Nephite Narrative the timelines dna and the number of cultures. Joseph had… Read more »
I don’t think Smith got a single thing right and the claims the Book of Mormon makes are not especially unique for its time. The Book of Mormon doesn’t account for more than two groups that migrated to the U.S., but we know, for example, that ancient Chinese settlements have been found in New Mexico and Arizona approx. 3,300 years ago. In addition, 1,000 year-old Viking relics have been discovered in Florida. These findings have been well-documented, but Book of Mormon claims leave us stymied because it leaves a great deal to the imagination. Take Cumorah Hill for example. The BoM mentions a great battle there that resulted in many thousands killed. There is no trace of any such struggle in the region. The BoM alludes to great ancient civilizations in north America, but why is there no trace of them? I describe a “great” civilization as one like Greece, Rome, Turkey or Mesopotamia that made significant advances in building, language, the arts and culture. In the U.S., we have nothing equivalent to those great cultures. The mound builders of the U.S. were a primitive “civilization” at best. Lastly, if the BoM was partially intended for the American Indians, Mormons would have to admit failure because it wasn’t accepted in large numbers, and still isn’t. Obviously, Native Americans had difficulty identifying with the BoM because it’s from a different cultural reference point.
Well Ferd
We can agree to disagree the readers can decide what is Book of Mormon evidence and what isn’t.
Ferd I forgot to add this you stated that there was no evidence for the battles in the Book of Mormon. I would disagree. Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites. In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15). New York State: “It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849) Kentucky: “Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153) New York State: “The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849) Illinois: “Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of… Read more »
Your idea of what constitutes a “mass burial pit” must be very different from mine. Also, if a quarter of a million “Nephites” were killed at Cumorah Hill, and “untold number” of “Lamanites” were killed there also, it’s only logical to conclude that we should be able to find a great many skeletal remains, but it’s not there. Sure, the mound builders buried their people there, but we have not come across anything approaching the magnitude suggested by the BoM account. Now, it’s fine to quote native legends, but don’t assume they’re all true or that they all got their oral history right. Do you know any Native American creation stories? If not, read a few of them and tell me if you can believe in everything you read. All the sources you refer to here are circa 1840’s, before archeology was an established science. When we use terms like “mass burials,” it means hundreds if not thousands of bodies. Yes, we’ve come across skeletal remains in all the places you mention, but we don’t find any evidence of a great conflagration, no holocaust, no mass burials of any great size. These pioneer references you quote are approaching 200 years. If you were a diligent student of history, you would have tried to include some contemporary research on these alleged findings to ascertain their value. I don’t doubt we have some ancient bones laying around. I just don’t see any convincing evidence of mass killings/burials on any large scale.
Ferd
First of all these were not pioneers but farmers. Squier himself did work for the Smithsonian. Also I was going by what was stated in the Book of Mormon Mormon 2:15 states that the bodies were heaped up as dung. I see that as piles of bodies. Squier found one pile was that was six feet deep and base 30 feet others found bones everywhere on there farm lands that works for me I’m sorry it does not work for you.
Second there was once 60 million buffalo that were wiped because the government wanted to destroy the major food source for Native Americans. Under your thinking this never happened because there are not 60 million buffalo bones out in the prairies and the records of this happening are really old.
Hi David McKane,
The fertilizer industry pretty well cleaned up the bison bones and provided income to homesteaders and farmers who gathered them by wagon loads.
http://westernfarmpress.com/blog/buffalo-bone-fertilizer-forgotten-days-agriculture
Tapir
Thank you for sharing this tidbit of information. It explains what farmers must have done when they found the piles of human bones and bone pits found on their farmlands. They used it as fertilizer.
Dear Ferd Have you ever at seen the extent of the Cahokia Mounds they estimate over a million people lived in the surrounding environs I’ve been to the Etowah Mounds in Georgia near Atlanta and on top of the biggest Mound you can see the city of Atlanta which is miles away that complex is one of the small ones farmers and whites have consistently and persistently destroyed and erased evidence of the great civilizations that existed in America pre Columbus and we’re just now starting to realize that they were much more technologically advanced than we gave them credit for you sound like someone that espouses manifest destiny. Manifest Destiny is what destroyed the evidence of great native civilizations in North America. I am a proud Cherokee and we have a great oral tradition that goes back many hundreds of years I’ve walked Fort Mountain Georgia where there are stone fortifications that there is no explanation for we also have a legend of the Nunehe which talks about the moon eyed people a light skin light haired people look at SCHELIEMAN! Troy was just a legend but he found it any did it weigh before modern archaeology was founded I think all that we’re asking that you do is keep an open mind schliemann did and he found Troy! every Legend so far has been proved to have some bit of Truth in it and some as we found out or all truth and besides the science of the… Read more »
” It explains what farmers must have done when they found the piles of human bones and bone pits found on their farmlands. They used it as fertilizer.”
No David, what it demonstrates is that the disappearance of the bison bones is well documented and accounted for. The disappearance of those bones cannot be used in an argument to claim that Book of Mormon battle victims’ bones likewise disappeared. There was no industry or machinery used to grind “piles of human bones” into fertilizer. The quantity of human bones found on farmlands is in no way comparable to the bison bones. And the quantity of human remains and the evidence on those bones of injuries causing death do not support the Book of Mormon’s claims of millions being killed in battle.
Well tapir
I guess we will have to disagree with how the evidence presents itself.
There is absolutely no evidence that human bones were collected by the agricultural industry to be ground up and used for fertilizer by early farmers and settlers. There is absolutely no evidence that a quantity of human bones was found in the United States on a magnitude even comparable to the numbers of bison bones, deposited in a short interval of time comparable to the slaughter of the bison. And there is absolutely no evidence in the archaeology of human remains in pre-contact United States of war deaths on a scale described in the Book of Mormon. So I can’t disagree with you on “how the evidence presents itself” because that evidence just isn’t even there.
These people? Racist
Why is it that If some ancient objects look fraudulent then all objects are concidered fraudulent.. I consider that fraud it self to classify objects as fraud without investigating all thousands of Michigan tablets. David A Deal was able to decipher one tablet calendar with a date of 352AD based on astronomical events on the tablet and NASA. Is that not evidence? So the Michigan tablets can’t all be fraud if some evidence is for. By the way they are not the only tablets and writing found in america. Los Lunas stone, burrows cave, and other found in Indiana and Ohio.
David, the fact is that the Michigan relic you believe to be from Bountiful, depicting a person on a cross, is a verified hoax artifact. Even the LDS church does not consider it legitimate. Why is it when I am discussing a specific known fraudulent artifact you keep trying to bring up other objects? Lets stick to that one Michigan relic, that one depicting a person on a cross.
Dave, do you have a book or website reference that explains the evidence about this tablet calendar you mention?
I do not know who posted the above post but it was not me. He might be confusing the mayan calendar with North American artifacts.
As far as the Michigan relics Alex Koritz did a podcast about the relics. He is probably less biased than I am. He is LDS but sounds like he doesn’t believe fundamental truth claims and he has a different opinion about the origin of the relics. There are also other links that show some of the artifacts from personal collections.
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/03/premium-the-michigan-artifacts-with-alex-koritz/
This comment is for the Dave who posted July 8, 2016 at 11:43 pm. which I now understand is not David McKane. ” David A Deal was able to decipher one tablet calendar with a date of 352AD based on astronomical events on the tablet and NASA. Is that not evidence? ” No, it is not evidence. David Allen Deal did not decipher anything, he made an imaginative attempt and his claim was not valid, nor supported by any credible scholars. David Allen Deal was not an archaeologist nor a linguist. He also wrote a book claiming that Noah’s ark had been found, and that find was completely debunked by scholars. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the best evidence that the Michigan relics are not authentic is the fact that the church had ownership of 797 of these hoax objects from 1974 until 2003, when they were given to the Michigan Historical Museum. One of those given away by the church was the tablet depicting a person on a cross. You can see a photo of that relic in this link, the photo taken by David Allen Deal when the tablet was in the church archives. http://www.ensignmessage.com/christinusa.html This fact creates many difficulties for those members who want the Michigan relics to be real. Why would the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have such a profound piece of evidence as that tablet depicting the crucifixion and then just give it away to a museum that… Read more »
My experience is that all of the churches anthropologist and Book of Mormon experts at FAIR and the Neal A Maxwell Institute are Meso American apologist. The last thing these guys want to do is come to the conclusion that their life’s work, education, books, and job to try and prove the Book of Mormon happened in Meso America was a big waste of money and time. That would be hard to swallow.
Seems they have put too much into trying to make the Book of Mormon fit with 21st century knowledge but ended up painting themselves into a corner. They had to discount and disregard Joseph Smith’s own words and twist the writings in the Book of Mormon into something they don’t say. They went against the cautions that Joseph Fielding Smith gave about two Cumorahs and have ended up causing a division in the membership of the church over something as simple as where the stories were supposed to have happened.
It really should just be on faith. Like I said, Moroni’s promise should be enough. In my youth the apostles and prophets promoted a hemispheric model, where the major events happened in the region of the United States but all indigenous peoples of the Americas were from Book of Mormon peoples. Now it isn’t even the same church.
So like I said, I can meet you half way with the stories intended to have been in regions of the United States, even though I no longer believe them. I just get disappointed when known hoaxes are used to try to prop things up.
To me, faith and reason should be able to come together to form a body of truth and information that is edifying on intellectual and spiritual levels. I know of certain books that provide that to me in great measure, but the Book of Mormon (as far as I’m concerned) hasn’t come anywhere close to supplying me with the satisfaction of knowing that what I’m reading is solid on all fronts. So when someone talks about having faith in something like the Book of Revelation or a “promise of Moroni,” I am skeptical. First, the Book of Revelation has been reinterpreted hundreds of times to fit a multitude of situations, and a “promise” from an “angel” from a book that’s loaded with errors doesn’t (to me) deserve my faith, a faith built in part on reason and research I can lay my hands on. Furthermore, I don’t think the premise of this blog is being especially honest, where Mr. McKane says that he’s not interested in defending the Book of Mormon, but is here to bolster the books’ viewpoint on controversial migration issues that only Mormons believe. Mormon “scholarship” as best as I can tell, depends largely on digging up long out-of-date and discarded ideas, recycling and repackaging them. But all this does is build on conspiracy theory which is neither honest or scientific.
Huh
That David Allen Deal stuff is interesting I had not heard about that till now. You make a good point I would say anything that does not support accepted theories about world migration and culture gets thrown out. And especially evidence that argues against it is looked at with revulsion.
Those things get thrown out for good reason. The accepted position of scholars is based on evidence and facts. Hoax artifacts aren’t considered hoaxes simply because they are contrary to the position of scholars, they are determined to be hoaxes based on evidence. In the case of the Michigan relics, the evidence is overwhelming that they are hoaxes. Same with the Burroughs cave, Los Lunas Decalogue, Newark Decalogue, etc.The mainstream consensus of scholars can change, but it takes considerable evidence that is credible. There is no credible evidence for Hebrews in ancient America. Without that, the consensus cannot be changed.
My concern with Mormonism and hoax artifacts is that presenting them as evidence misleads members and can actually destroy faith when someone who really wants the truth begins studying from reputable and credible journals of science and learns that pseudo-archaeology is filled with hoaxes. Moroni’s promise should be enough. Nothing is really gained in the long term by propping up as evidence objects that are not real.
David McKane, you and I do share some things in common. Your position that the Book of Mormon stories happened in regions of the United States and not Mesoamerica is something that I can meet you half-way on. Even though I no longer believe the Book of Mormon and have left the church, I do maintain that Joseph Smith intended it to be about the American Indians in the United States.
You keep focusing on ” hoax” artifacts. You white wash all the Hopewell and Adena artifacts. Hopewell and Adena civilization are not a hoax neither are their artifacts fitting the scriptural narrative. With the name of tapir rider I doubt you have a healthy concern about members faith. I found the controversial artifacts to be very interesting. But the research was over one hundred pages and all you focus on is a couple sentences. Your focus on this is interesting. You do not need to worry about people’s faith. Anybody who based their sole activity in the church on physical evidence for the Book of Mormon are inactive or have left the church. The tbm who are left don’t care about physical evidence or a sign that the Book of Mormon is true. What matters to them is the purpose of the Book of Mormon. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to draw people to Christ. You can’t take that away from them neither can physical evidence even though now the physical evidence is more supportive of the Book of Mormon than it detracts away from it. Trust me I get depressed when I see tbm yawn when I share my passion and research with them. For them Book of Mormon brings them closer to god and that is all that matters. The thousands of controversial artifacts some have estimates as high as 30000 (not my estimate) are compelling and for those who are interested in this type… Read more »
David, there is no need at all to use any known hoax artifacts. This has nothing to do with whitewashing all of the authentic artifacts. None of those provide any support for claims of ancient Hebrews in the Americas. Seeing them for what they really are offers no evidence for the Book of Mormon. For LDS members, there should be no need for any pseudoarchaeology or claims that challenge the consensus of science. But what I have seen with some LDS members are claims of conspiracies by scientists to hide evidence and claims of evidence that do not hold up. Wayne May’s use of the Michigan relics as well as many other unreliable claims made by him and others are nothing but garbage. The Book of Mormon should stand on its own, Moroni’s promise should be enough. But there are members who present trash to offer in support of it. Some have even intentionally and dishonestly misrepresented scientists. These things can in fact can be harmful to individual LDS members who are searching for truth. It is a bitter pill to swallow when one wants to believe what others offer in support of evidence, only to find it is based on lies and known hoaxes. And what does the other side of the geography debate have to offer? Mesoamerica? That requires disregarding Joseph Smith’s own words, even re-interpreting statements about Lamanites in the Doctrine and Covenants. It also requires admitting that General Conference teachings from the apostles Mark E. Peterson… Read more »
um…not a Mormon but would like to point out that A: LDS church didn’t own the Michigan tablets a private family did and does. The LED church and the owning family were told that they were go in to be researched by their top researchers and experts so they naturally agreed. Obviosly they were bambuzooled by an archeology department.…not a shock or surprise. Hall break into the 4th basment of the Smithsonian and you’ll see millions of artifacts they conned people out of to keep under the wraps of main stream brainwashing. B: the only reason the Michigan tablets were and are considered hoaxes by mainstream dogmatic is the metal tools that were used to make them. well metal tools have been found coast to coast and border to border. Mohawks had steel bows when we showed up…the colonists noted that their bows shot arrows further and fastwe than their muzzle loaders. I would also like to point out to the gentleman that continues to state that there was no advanced civilization in north America prior to the Europeans… that is insainly ignorant. Just your munk mound is a 2 full acres larger in base than the Giza Pyramid. Surpant mount need more death moved than Pharos Canal.…ancient Suez.…. well and speaking of canals obviously you’ve researched the Ortone park canal system in Florida. Or the Grand Terre island canal system or the Hohokum Rover Canal system in the Phoenix area. I’m asuming our friend is not American , we… Read more »
For many years, I’ve studied the origins of the Book of Mormon. The method by which it was received continues to look extremely flimsy in my opinion. Being a descendant of Luman Walters, I’ve read his notes that strongly suggest that the Smith’s were just good at making things up. I could go on.
Hi. Your model requires the fresh water great lakes to be seas. Seas are not fresh water. If every word in the Book of Mormon can be redefined to something else, then we could easily have a model on the moon. The only model I know of that does not continually redefine words is the South American model where the Amazon basin was underwater before Christ. Here is the best current blog on it: http://nephicode.blogspot.com/
Well Heber,
Generally in America you would be correct. But in other places around the world such as Israel where Lehi is from. A sea can refer to a fresh body of water such as the SEA of Galilee.
You are implying that the ancient mind couldn’t tell the difference between a large body of fresh water like a lake and a saline sea. For this to be true, you’d have to provide documentation. Like for instance, wherever a body of water is mentioned in the Bible (Sea of Galilee, Great Sea, Waters of Merom, etc, etc), did the author err in describing it as a salt or fresh water body?
Ferd
The ancients new the difference between salt water and fresh water the word sea as currently used in Eurasia and in the bible can refer to either or.
O.k., fine, but you did seem to imply that they didn’t know the difference in an earlier post.
I like the article and suggest anyone who want lean more about the native people to read their books. A good one is “To the American Indian: Reminiscences of Yurkok Woman” She talks about the wa-gas people that lived in Northern California on the Kalamith River before the Native Americans arrived. She said these ancient white people had inhabited the whole contentment and where friendly and nice people but left somewhere up north. And let’s not forget the Cherokee who’s oral history has them coming from Israel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMT0MePKRf8). The problem I have with the current theories of the mound builders is when you read the old books they talk about the Hopewell and Adena as a very sophisticated culture Which is different than the current belief that they were hunter gathers. In the book Prehistoric Men of Kentucky by Col. Bennet A. Young he give account the Shawnee Indian war on extermination of the white mound builders that these people had a sophistication not known to Indians. See below: Col. James Moore, of Kentucky, was told by an old Indian that the primitive inhabitants of this state had perished in a war of extermination waged against them by the Indians; that the last great battle was fought at the Falls of the Ohio, (Clarksville Indiana); and that the Indians succeeded in driving the aborigines into a small island below the rapids, ‘where the whole of them were cut to pieces’. The colonel was assured that the evidence of this event rested… Read more »
The hopewell were very sophisticated they had metal weapons, jewelry, breast plates, head plates, made their own woven cloth clothing, they had a advanced trade system that stretched thousands of miles, they were agriculturist and built fortifications as described in the Book of Mormon.
Rafinesque committed fraud, his work is now a known hoax.
http://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/hoaxes/walam_olum.html
The Michigan relics likewise are a known hoax. The LDS church commissioned a study of them and determined they were not real. LDS Apostle James Talmage announced that they were a hoax. This determination still holds today.
David, please be careful.
Tapir rider
Your comment is out of place. Concerning the Michigan Relics its estimated that there are over 10000 artifacts that were found throughout Michigan that are considered fake because of cuneiform and Egyptian like characters on them. Some of the tablet artifacts showed biblical depictions.
Although I do mention the Michigan relics and say that they are believed to be fake. I do not use any of the Michigan relic artifacts as evidence so your point is baseless.
No, it isn’t out of place. You said “So did the mound builder art or degree of sophistication include metallurgy, sun dial, calendars, and star charts? All the item found that where considered fraudulent artifacts by most scholars (search Michigan artifacts). Was this sophistication just bows and arrows?”
Instead of just mentioning that most scholars considered the Michigan relics fraudulent, you might consider pointing out that the LDS church found them to be fake and has not changed its position on that.
You also said “(and Tennessee also is associated with Kentucky in prehistoric ethnography by Rafinesque)”. Rafinesque’s work was a fake too.
Dave, please be careful with using known hoaxes in trying to make your points.
Tapir
The items I quote are confirmed by modern archeology. “The hopewell were very sophisticated they had metal weapons, jewelry, breast plates, head plates, made their own woven cloth clothing, they had a advanced trade system that stretched thousands of miles, they were agriculturist and built fortifications”
I do not know if hopewell Indians used star charts or a calendar. My guess is
that they used the same lunar calendar that native Americans used. Which according to historical accounts the Native American calendar is the same if not very similar as the Hebrew calendar.
It’s confirmed by modern archeology that the Hopewell made metal breastplates etc. Its been estimated that about 3/4 of a billion pounds of copper were mined by prehistoric native Americans to include the hopewell and the adena. I would call that advanced and I believe all archeologist who studied the Hopewell extensively consider them advance also. If you have any questions let me know.
Dave, my points are about the Michigan relics and Constantine Rafinesque’s fraudulent work and your reference to these things while discussing the Hopewell culture and the Book of Mormon.
The ‘Michigan Relics’: A Story of Forgery and Deception by Apostle James E. Talmage in the October 1911 Improvement Era Magazine
https://archive.org/stream/improvementera14012unse#page/n7/mode/2up
Tools Leave Marks: Material Analysis of the Scotford-Soper-Savage Michigan Relics by Richard B. Stamps
https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/viewFile/6801/6450
New light shone on ‘old relics’ by Dr. Bradley T. Lepper
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/science/2009/07/12/light.html
The fact that these objects are frauds does not undermine the authenticity of real Hopewell artifacts and culture, nor does it threaten the Book of Mormon. But attempts by some LDS members to suggest that the Michigan relics and/or Rafinesque’s fraudulent work are authentic misleads away from truth.
Tapir
You have no clue what you are talking about. The Hopewell artifacts I display are from museums. The one from books I list the source. If you have any questions as to authenticity of any museum displayed artifact let me know which one and I will let you know which museum it is displayed. As far as pictured artifacts from books I have the list see below.
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑6/
Dave, I am talking about your false and misleading statements concerning the Michigan artifacts and Constantine Rafinesque’s fraudulent work.
You stated “16 runestones found in North America are generally believed to be fake. These runestones have what appears to be Hebrew, Phoenician, and Greek-like characters. These are the Bat Creek Stone, AVM Runestone, Bourne stone, Grave Creek Stone, Heavener Runestone, Kensington Runestone, Narragansett Runestone, Oklahoma runestones, Poteau Runestone, Spirit Pond runestones, Vérendrye Runestone, Shawnee Runestone, Ohio Key stone, Ohio Decalogue stone, The Jonson Bradner stone, and the Michigan Tablets. The generally-accepted, but unfounded theory behind these runestones is that 19th and 20th century farmers and citizens had an insatiable desire to make fake Indian paleo Hebrew, Greek and Phoenician like artifacts and had the ability to do so. Neither of those assertions are supported by facts.”
That statement is in error because the facts do support the conclusion that the Michigan artifacts were faked and that those who did it had the ability to do so.
You need to be careful in what you claim is real.
Well Tapir
I stand behind my claim. The idea that two people would make over 10000 artifacts and spread them all over Michigan I find ridiculous and that is just Michigan.
Elder James E. Talmage was a rare apostle of the LDS church. One of his published works (he was a co-author) was while he was an apostle. It was in a non-LDS, peer reviewed, academic journal and was on the subject of the Michigan relics. It is well worth reading. The Michigan Archaeological Question Settled, by Frederick Starr, J.O. Kinnaman, and James E. Talmage, published in The American Antiquarian and Oriental Journal 33, no. 3, 1911 https://books.google.com/books?id=B8oaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false You might want to consider that the Michigan relics do not number over 10,000 artifacts, the true count is somewhere around 3,000. Also, the so-called “16 runestones” you wrote about have all been likewise found to be hoaxes. And your claim of “3/4 of a billion pounds of copper were mined by prehistoric native Americans” is also an error that comes from pseudoarchaeology sources. The State of Our Knowledge About Ancient Copper Mining in Michigan The Michigan Archaeologist 41(2–3):119–138. Susan R. Martin 1995 http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html I stand by my position that hoax artifacts were quite common in the 19th century, far more common than you seem to grasp. The actual archaeological evidence of the Hopewell culture has nothing to do with ancient Hebrews in America. Instead, it has everything to do with a most incredible people who developed in their own ways with their own cultures, isolated from the Old World cultures and technologies. They even accomplishing an independent domestication of plants, one of only a handful throughout the world, which formed an agricultural base that did… Read more »
3000 artifacts are possessed by museums. It’s estimated that over 9000 artifacts are owned by private collectors.
This argument has been pointless the point of my essay and research is not about the Michigan relics it has been about the confirmed artifacts and clothing, the metal weapons and tools that fit the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon animals that went extinct in Hopewell lands. Native American DNA from Israel and Iran that is not found in Siberia or east or Central Asia. Hopewell fortifications that match Book of Mormon descriptions and the BoM timeline. Historical accounts of Native American beliefs burial methods and artifacts that match the Old Testament and Bom Narrative. The Michigan relics discussion is a waste of time.
Dave, if your estimate of over 9000 relics is in reference to those with inscriptions suggesting ancient Hebrews were in the Americas, then your estimate is flat out wrong. The forgeries known as the Scotford-Soper-Savage collection, made by two people, does not and has never had that many. At most, only about 3,000 hoax artifacts were fabricated by them. You said “The idea that two people would make over 10000 artifacts and spread them all over Michigan I find ridiculous and that is just Michigan.” The facts are working against you.
You said “This argument has been pointless the point of my essay and research is not about the Michigan relics”
Dave, it is crucial to be accurate and use reliable information if you want your points to be believable. You are using known hoax artifacts and making erroneous claims about them. This is damaging to your case and is not a pointless argument, nor is it a waste of time..
Dave said:
“The one I find the most interesting are the Michigan relics in the geography map Michigan is the land bountiful. It is also the city that Christ visited.
In the Michigan relics there is a depiction of a person on a cross. I think the the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful.”
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑1/#comment-72
Then you tell me “This argument has been pointless the point of my essay and research is not about the Michigan relics”. It would be pointless if you were not mentioning them and making claims about them. But you are the one using them in your essay and comments. It is not pointless and out of place to discuss fraudulent hoax artifacts when they are presented as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
Archaeology’s great hoax
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/4841/archaeologys-great-hoax
To Tapir Rider’s point, Dave, if you don’t feel strongly that these Michigan relics are important to your model, perhaps it makes sense to remove or strike them since they appear to be at least mostly a proven hoax.
Ok I changed the wording to read as follows.
The generally accepted theory behind these runestones is that 19th and 20th century farmers and citizens had an insatiable desire to make fake Indian paleo Hebrew, Greek and Phoenician like artifacts and had the ability to do so. I find this problematic.
Tapir
Nothing pictured in my essay are from the Michigan relics. If you want to know from which museum the artifacts are from let me know they are all Hopewell artifacts except for Arlington Mallory he claimed the iron slag he found was from an Adena site. There artifact depictions from older books from the early 20th 18th 17th and 16th century sources are claimed by the authors to be found in mound builder sites.
David, I’m not talking about pictures. I have clearly explained and shown with your own quotes what you have said about the Michigan relics. They are, in fact, hoax artifacts.
When you say pictures are you referring to the confirmed Hopewell artifacts of breastplates and head plates etc?
I am talking about what you have said about the Michigan relics, not the pictures that YOU are referring to. David, you said:
“The one I find the most interesting are the Michigan relics in the geography map Michigan is the land bountiful. It is also the city that Christ visited.
In the Michigan relics there is a depiction of a person on a cross. I think the the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful.”
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑1/#comment-72
David, the Michigan relics are hoax artifacts. The one with a depiction of a person on a cross is not from the Hopewell culture. It is a forgery. You should rethink your position that the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful. They are not. They are fraudulent fabrications and do not support the Book of Mormon.
David.…Keep trusting the spirit. Your doing it the right way. My wife and I just spent a full 12 hour day at a Book of Mormon Symposium with Rod Meldrum, Bruce Porter, Ryan Fisher, Wayne May and others. I love the testimony I have of the Book of Mormon Lands here in the Promised Land. Pretty much any member you ask who has a testimony of the Heartland model knew within minutes this is the Promised Land, not MesoAmerica. I’ve only been active in the church a couple years, I’m in my 50’s and grew up believing MesoAmerica was where the Book of Mormon took place. I try to let members know who are trying to Google there way to the truth to remember, the Heartland model here in 2016 has given their rebuttle and evidence to everything the old FARMS, who BYU fired in 2012, then became the Interpreter and now call themselves Book of Mormon Central has thrown at them. Beware of reading 9 out of 10 old lies and attacks on the Heartland model. Go to FIRMLDS.ORG and Bookofmormonevidence. com to find the Heartland truth and what they present to dispell those lies. I’ll end it with just one of 1,000ss of side bits of truth. The first Bible in the United States was translated in the Algonquian Native American language in 1663 and taught to the Algonquian speaking Tribes. Fast forward to the moment the Book of Mormon was hot off the press in the 1800’s, the… Read more »
This is how I would respond to your model. The God of the Old Testament is a ridiculous God; why try to connect Native Americans to Him? Why continue to believe that God “cursed” Lamanites with dark skin? That’s just plain barbaric and racist. Native Americans on both continents of North and South America, have a rich history WITHOUT being connected to Israel and the nomadic myths and tales of the Old Testament. It just doesn’t make any logical sense to even try to connect them. So few people believe in the God of the Old Testament any more, any way, and Mormonism’s attempts to try to connect Jesus and Jehovah and the Native Americans is silly. Think of it, God cursing people with dark skin? What kind of God is that?
Kevin I think you and many lds members misunderstand what the curse is. The curse has nothing to do with physical skin color.The curse is separation from God and becoming a wicked people and committing all kinds of atrocities. The mark as mentioned in the Book of Mormon is also mentioned which does refer to physical appearance but the mark is neutral. In the case of the Amlicites they were once Nephites and rebelled and became wicked. They were wicked and cursed. It does not say god changed their skin color. But in order to distinguish themselves from the Nephites they put red on their foreheads. Alma 3:13 13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads By making this physical mark on their foreheads. They fulfilled the other part of the promise the mark, but notice that it was not a change of skin color but the mark on the forehead that fulfilled this part. Which a mark can be anything that distinguishes themselves from Gods people. Alma 3:18 18 Now the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads; nevertheless they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them. In this next verses it talks about the curse which is separation… Read more »
David: I think you just cut and pasted this reply from my little tidbit on the LDS Church’s Indian Placement Program and the Bundy takeover in Eastern Oregon. It would be nice to have a real discussion with you. Please see my reply in the other posting, and remember that the plain and simple reading of the Book of Mormon as read by your former prophets, was that the curse was dark skin and that by living righteously, like converting to the gospel through the Indian Placement Program, the Native Americans would become white and delightsome. See Spencer W. Kimball October 1960 general conference address.
I’ve gone through this process before, although I don’t think I put as much thought into it. There is a reason why the Hopewell Tradition matches up reasonably well, except for the huge disparity on time frames.
These are the remains that Joe was used to encountering and were the inspiration for his book.
That’s it. No other explanation needed.
The Hopewell timeline is an excellent match.
Hopewell timeline is 500BC (Crystal River Florida Hopewell) to 400–500AD
Book of Mormon Timeline 600BC to 421AD. The beginning of the Hopewell timeline is off by about 100 years but it allows Lehi and his small group to make a archaeological footprint.
I use science as my evidence. There are disparities but I think the disparities will be worked out through more evidence.
You can’t start with the conclusion that the BOM is true and then move all the pieces around to make it fit your preconceived conclusion. That’s the opposite of science.
Just makes me sad you are so desperate to prove a fictitious story. So much of life wasted on researching a fake storyline.
I see dna, archaeological, linguistic, geographical, cultural, and artifacts as evidence. Ultimately physical evidence does not matter because a spiritual witness trumps all. But that being said I stand behind the evidence and theories being presented. Feel free to point out holes in my theories I’m willing to defend to defend each and everyone.
If it all comes down to faith, why did you create this document? Seems antithetical to seek proof of something you believe requires faith to be real.
I’m not trying to prove the Book of Mormon is true. What I’m doing is providing my opinion based on the archaeological, dna, cultural, linguistic and geographical research of where I think the geographic locations of where the Book of Mormon took place.
If correct I think the theories and research provided can help people understand the Book of Mormon from a geographical and archaeological standpoint. If correct I think it helps to understand what Nephite cloth, metal Jewelry, metal breast plates, metal head plates, and other Nephite artifacts look like.
Also and probably most importantly I enjoy during research in this area.
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑3/
How do you know it’s fake are you an archaeologist are you an expert I think David’s got more experience than you do bring up something valid instead of just attacking our faith I’m Native American and also a proud member of the LDS Church
How would you respond to this critique of the Heartland model: http://www.bmaf.org/node/359
The first section 1–6 does not apply to me but to Meldrum but I will say I think this guy makes some very juvenile criticisms.
In the second section 7–10 I quote Joseph Smith vision about Zelph. Zelph is not mentioned in this section nor does anything else apply to me and what I have used.
Section C I addressed in a previous comment
11.
I stated that all the runestones were considered fake. The characters found on the runestones have been compared to Greek, Hebrew, and Phoenician. What I disagreed with was that I don’t believe early 19th and 18th century settlers would have been capable of forging paleo Hebrew, Greek, and Phoenician characters.
12–13 N/A
Section D see my section about dna evidence
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑2/
21.N/A
22. There is no specific verse that says Sidon ran south to North. How mesoamerican apologist say sidon ran south to north is incoherent and convoluted.
23 In my model sidon flows into South sea I sea no issue there. From what I can tell BOM never states which sea Sidon flowed into nor does it state it flowed into multiple seas.
24–34 applys to meldrums model not mine.
35–39 N/A While I do quote Joseph Smith I do not quote other LDS leaders.
40–45 See sections
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑3/
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑4/
This is frankly some of the worst “history” I have ever read. If you are going to make claims that there are iron swords, elephants, horses, and chariots, you better provide some serious citations. For instance, in response I could post this interview with a Yale professor on book of mormon archeology. http://mormonstories.org/michael-coe-an-outsiders-view-of-book-of-mormon-archaeology/. Your friend would most likely claim that the subject of that interview is mesoamerica and not North America, but if you listen to the interview that’s because the only even remotely “arguable” (I use this in the broadest sense because the book of mormon is entirely made up) location for the book of mormon is mesoamerica.
If this is the worst history you have ever seen you should have no problem disproving the evidence. Keep in mind though the sources cited from early historians and settlers excluding archaeological sites have been used to write the entire history of the Native American People.
The “runestones” you are referring to are actually these (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Holy_Stones) and similar hoaxes. I’m assuming you’ve intentionally changing the words to make it harder to connect them to the source.
I stated that all the runestones were considered fake. The characters found on the runestones have been compared to Greek, Hebrew, and Phoenician. What I disagreed with was that I don’t believe early 19th and 18th century settlers would have been capable of forging paleo Hebrew, Greek, and Phoenician characters.
A couple of big problems with this.
Joseph Smith claims there were only two great migrations to the American continents.
Group 1: The Jaredites. They depend on a literal tower of babel, and they needed to all die save two men, fulfilling prophecy.
Group 2: The Lehites. They needed to show up around 600 BC, but the Hopewell existed at least 100–200 years prior to that in Florida. To put this into perspective, that’s like claiming men landed on the moon around the time of the revolutionary war. It’s wrong.
Even the church essays admit there is no DNA connection. The hopewell graves that were dug up do not match Jewish DNA that traces their lineage back to David. Instead, they’re linked to the cherokee which goes back to nearly 1800 BC.
And that’s just a start. We could also talk about the Tower of Babel, the lack of artifacts specifically stated in the Book (since you now claim to know who they are, you’d expect to see 2000 year old wheels or European swords — hint: you don’t). Lack of warfare around hill cumorah, specifically the destruction of half the entire eastern United States gathered around a 2–3 mile radius. I could go on, but I think you get the point.
TL;DR: We get it. The Hopewell timeline almost matches up with the Book of Mormon timeline (+/- a few hundred years). That doesn’t make this people the mythical Nephites, nor does it mean you can ignore everything else to push that conclusion.
There were three migrations the Lehites, Jaredites, and Mulekites. The Jaredites and Lehites kept written records the Mulekites did not.
The Hopewell Indians at Crystal River date to 500BC that gives Lehi and his family about 100 years to make a archaeological footprint completely reasonable in my opinion. Crystal river is next to the ocean so its also geographical match.
Early settlers found bones everywhere in the New York area. And Indians in that area have a belief about a ancient and great and bloody battle that took place.
For me I see enough artifacts to support the claims made in the Book of Mormon.
The Great Lake Native American haplo group x is most closely related to the Israeli Druze of Galilee
“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”
If you look at the Parsimony tree you will see the Ojibwa are in a direct line with the Israeli Druze.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377656/
As to why the tribe of Manasseh (Lehi’s tribe) is not a Jewish marker is probably because the tribe of Manasseh fell away from Hebrew beliefs due to Assyrian rule and occupation as explained in the Old Testament and ancient history. See the section about chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce tribe.
Are there any available scientific analyses of the runestones?
The runestone that has been studied the most and gained the most attention is the bat creek stone. Here is a link
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.html
The one I find the most interesting are the Michigan relics in the geography map Michigan is the land bountiful. It is also the city that Christ visited.
In the Michigan relics there is a depiction of a person on a cross. I think the the Michigan relics are artifacts from the city of Bountiful. Here is a link to the story about the Michigan relics.
http://www.michigansotherside.com/mysterious-michigan/mysterious-places/26-strange-history/92-the-mysterious-michigan-relics