DNA marker x2a’j is probably the greatest DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon thus far.
X2a’j is not found in North America but its importance to Native American DNA is virtually unknown. It’s the 5‑ton elephant in the room that researcher’s geneticist do not want to talk about. Outside of the American continent it’s the most closely related genetic link to a founding Native American genetic DNA marker called haplogroup X. X2a’j is found in Iran. One would expect that if current theories about world migration and DNA dating are correct the closest genetic links to Native American haplogroup X would be in Siberia, East and central Asia. Haplogroup X DNA related to Native American haplogroup X is not found in these countries. Haplogroup X found in the Altains is not related to Native American haplogroup X.
The dating of haplogroup X is troublesome for the Book of Mormon but the geographical distribution of haplogroup X is spot on. Galilee Druze of Israel have the most genetic diversity of haplogroup X. It’s been proposed that this area in Israel is the place that haplogroup x dispersed from. For those who believe in the historical narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon the idea that Native American DNA dispersed from Israel matches the scriptural narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon. But the real question becomes why would the closest haplogroup X genetic link to Native of Americans be in Iran?
Borrowing from previous research the Bible and Book of Mormon explain as follows. The tribe of Manasseh which Lehi and Nephi are members of are invaded by the Assyrians and defeated and half of the tribe of Manasseh are deported.(2 Kings 17:6, 1Chronicles 5:26). In the final deportations of Manasseh, Sargon the II deports the northern tribes of Israel to the Assyrian empire which included Media known today as the northwest part of Iran. The Median tribes in 678BC made the first empire of Iran. With these deportations it’s also believed the dispersions of the lost ten tribes of Israel to the north begins.
2 Chronicles 30:1–11 explains that the Tribe of Manasseh was invited back to Jerusalem to worship back at the temple. 2 Kings 17:34 states that they no longer worshipped the God of Israel, most likely influenced by the Assyrian culture and beliefs provided by the Assyrians. Lehi ancestors very well could have been some of those invited back to Jerusalem and reconverted back to their ancestral Hebrew beliefs. Those who rebelled against Nephi such as Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael probably reverted back to pagan beliefs of Assyrian origin when they arrived in the promise land.
As to why this is the most concise DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon is twofold. There are cultural and DNA findings that match the Book of Mormon and Old Testament. The DNA and scriptural narrative is nothing without the cultural evidence displayed by Native American culture. I believe not only did Lehi bring Hebrew like culture but Laman and Lemuel or possibly the Mulekites brought over Assyrian pagan beliefs. The Nez Pierce Indians have the most concrete examples of Assyrian culture. The Mik Mak Indians have the best examples of Hebrew culture.
Ancient Mesopotamian Cuneiform tablets were found on Chief Joseph. Cuneiform dates back thousands of years to Mesopotamia, to what is now modern day Iraq. Assyrians also used a form of cuneiform. When Chief Joseph was asked where he got the tablets he said he received them from his forefathers. The tablet was translated as a bill of sale for animals.
This is an ancient Assyrian relief sculpture. The Assyrian God Asher sits on his throne. In front of him is a four-pointed star with a circle in the center. Radiating out from between the four points of the star are rays of light. The rays of light radiate out in three ribbons:
Assyrian Flag
The Assyrian flag is the flag chosen by the Assyrian people to represent the Assyrian nation in the homeland and in the diaspora.
Chief Joseph not only had Cuneiform tablets but his medicine bag has what appears to have the Assyrian Star of Ashur. The star in the middle has four points and what would be the three ribbons of light coming from the star.
“We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations (table 2) and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade.”
NP 12397 is X2A’J. DNA proof explaining the mystery of Nez Pierce Indians having Assyrian culture is iron clad evidence in my unprofessional opinion. That Assyrian culture to include other old world culture thrived among North American Native Americans.
People have tried to explain away Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets with seemingly impossible explanations. But to try and explain the cultural, cuneiform tablets and supporting DNA evidence will take a supreme effort of mental gymnastics.
Critics will point out that Native American haplogroup X in North America is problematic it dates to between 11000–13000BC. Well before the Book of Mormon. This immediately disqualifies haplogroup X as DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon unless of course dating of Native American haplogroup X is incorrect. If critics are able to credibly explain away the Assyrian links and DNA evidence found in Iran then the dating of haplogroup X2a has a leg to stand on otherwise. Native American haplogroup X cannot be dated earlier then Assyrian culture which started around 3000BC. If you follow the scriptural narrative than Kennwick man should date after 550BC. At this point the only explanation for Native American Iran DNA and Assyrian culture is scripture.
Much like the mental gymnastics of calling a horse a tapir and other examples Mesoamerican apologetics were laughed to scorn for their hope in the most unlikeliest circumstances. Researches best bet at this point is to continue to ignore the DNA evidence and hope like Book of Mormon Mesoamerican apologist that DNA evidence in their favor will arise.
To see more cultural links to the old world see link.
I’d like to add to this discussion. Maybe these genes are from the giants and that’s why they are most similar to …I don’t know what I’m supposed to say here… white people. I know from my dreams of my past lives that there were giants that were white with red hair and curly beards. Large lamp-like blue eyes and I was a very tall man and only came up to around his waist. He lived on an island in around Ireland. His habitation was a large, circular woodwork and it was at the highest point. It was some kind of festival time around March and he seemed to be the presiding dignitary. The island was teeming with the locals who were of medium height, blond hair and blue eyes. I was not from around there and seemed much more urban and sophisticated. I Was very tall, thin and had green eyes and black hair. We were talking about this demon I was hunting and that’s why I had landed there in my ship. As we were walking around we noticed a child alone picking flowers I saw his eyes light on her and I knew he wanted to eat her. I quickly said this little girl has lost her mother and took her away quickly to find her negligent mother. While I was away the demon landed and the giant betrayed me and my plans. I got back in time to see his ship sailing off and boarded my… Read more »
David, I’d love to hear more about your beliefs about carbon dating. You state that the X2AJ DNA has been dated through the Kennwick skeleton to a range from 3750 BC to 7000 BC. I understand that is a large range, however not even the youngest date in that range aligns with the Book of Mormon timeline. You state that “Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables.” That is an important variable, and there is solid evidence indicating the levels of carbon dioxide (C12 and C14) in the atmosphere back at least 8000 years. By measuring the C12 and C14 in very old dead trees and counting the thousands of rings of those trees, along with the thousands of rings of recently alive trees, scientists have verified that radiocarbon is accurate within at least that period. After about 20,000 years, there is so little carbon left in previously organic objects that radiocarbon dating is not reliable — the measurement is essentially indistinguishable from background radiation. I of course cannot force you to accept the solid science of radiocarbon dating, but if you’d like somewhere to start to understand it better, I found a fairly easy to read summary (compared to many of the other more technical and boring sources) refuting many of the common critiques of radiocarbon dating: https://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating/. Again, I would love to hear why exactly… Read more »
At this point in time I think the DNA evidence and cultural evidence is a more accurate representation of dating then what radio carbon dating is showing.
Ok, so to clarify, you are willfully disregarding strong evidence that discredits your hypothesis, just because you don’t like it? You are cherry-picking the evidence that coincidentally supports your position and ignoring all the evidence that doesn’t. Your hypothesis is consistently not credible because it is based on cherry-picking what supports your position rather than considering all the evidence for and against your position. You can cherry-pick evidence in any culture and make incredible claims. Symbols like your “Assyrian flag” are, in my opinion, the most likely coincidental matches. Take for example, the Jewish “Star of David” — it is supposed evidence that “The Jews and all modern religious traditions originated in ancient India” according to this article: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread812295/pg1. My point being that the use of similar symbols is not generally considered evidence of the same origin. I think we’ve all doodled something similar to the design on Chief Joseph’s medicine bag, just because it is a fairly simple pattern that can spontaneously occur, just like the Star of David symbol. Tying it back to the DNA evidence you present, all together it shows that there are a variety of migrations from other continents. That specifically refutes the Book of Mormon claims like 2 Nephi 1:6 and 9 that “there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord” and that “[Nephi’s family] may possess this land unto themselves”. The only DNA evidence that one of the many migrations may have been… Read more »
I have to go with the scientific evidence that is most accurate when they conflict with each other. As you stated there were multiple migrations to the Americas. But migrations do not fit the terminology very well. There were multiple trans ocean voyages. To include a Polynesian, Australian, and most definitely a middle eastern voyage all three of those dna markers are found in the Americas. The middle east marker found among North American Indians. The dna evidence is supportive of some Asian haplo groups making it to the Americas via ocean voyages. Certain Asian haplogroups are missing in key areas to show a migration across a barren ice bridge. Some of the Asian haplo groups being absent are in modern day and paleo Eskimos. The biggest argument that once was against the Book of Mormon in terms of DNA is now its biggest defense ironic I know. What the problem is dna evidence conflicts with the dating of Haplo Group x and other Haplo groups, unless of course cave men were sailing across the oceans. Another example and mystery is that there was a migration to Australia 40000 years ago. Last time I checked Australia was an island. I’m going with the dna evidence its supported by cultural evidence. Scientist need to make the variables with radio carbon dating match up with cultural and dna evidence. They changed the first dating of Kennwick man by 3450 years. That same number used in the opposite direction falls well within the Book of… Read more »
In the almost 200 years the church has never stopped growing year after year. Rates of those growth have spiked then fallen but growth has always been constant and it continues to grow. Some countries have excellent growth rates.
The same haplogroup X found in living Native Americans was present in Native American populations that lived 8,000 years ago. This fact demonstrates your claims are false.
If this is the same simon we have discussed this topic before so I will repost my reply. The radio carbon dating of haplo group x comes through kennwick man. When it comes to dating Kennewick man a skeleton with Haplogroup x dna he dated to 9000 BP (7000BC) after several attempts. Kennwick man has been dated to 3750BC, 6410BC, 4130BC, and 6130BC. Those are some wide ranges. In my unprofessional and biased opinion the scientist based on their own biases kept dating Kennewick man until they got the date they wanted. Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables. I believe the old world (Hebrew) language and culture and technology found among the Hopewell Adena and Native Americans is a better indication of age. Not to mention there is no dna evidence for a Bering Ice Bridge crossing not only for Haplo group x but other Haplo groups. See technology and Hebrew culture ties that I believe show correct dating. http://www.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/c14memo.htm Technology https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑3/ Hebrew cultural ties https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑4/ I believe that the solutrean and Bering ice bridge for the populating of the America continent to be false. But the solutrean has more dna evidence for it than the Bering ice bridge theory. But your right the majority of scientist consider the solutrean theory to be unacceptable. Here are some previously posted comments about radio carbon dating and… Read more »
Did chief Joseph live in North America or Central America ? One wonders where the Book of Mormon people lived since we have Book of Mormon tours in Central America
There are two major theories of thought of where the Book of Mormon took place Central America and North America. You can take Book of Mormon tours not only in Central America but also North America.
Molly Most people believe that confirmed Book of Mormon like artifacts such as breastplates headplates, woven cloth, metal weapons, necklaces, buttons, etc that are all confirmed Book of Mormon time period is all great evidence. The north American model has archeological sites and artifacts.
Artifact evidence is generally known as evidence believe it or not.
Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob So of course the Book of Mormon not true “The Gods who dwell in the Heaven…have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state.…they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.” (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23) Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613–614,… Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone. “God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.) It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334 Doctrine and Covenant’s 132: 20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from… Read more »
I don’t know if this is the right forum to discuss your comment but what the heck might as well. The bible teaches the same thing that man can be exalted and become like Heavenly Father. Look at Jesus Christ, he was once a mortal being who is now an exalted being. Psalms 82:6 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Christ quotes himself. John 10:34 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Christ was not perfect until after his mortal existence he learned from that which he suffered. After his resurrection only then was he perfect. Luke 13:32 Hebrew 5:8,9 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Christ tells the people to be perfect like Heavenly father he does not include himself. After his resurrection and perfection he tells the Nephites to be perfect like himself and Heavenly Father. Mathew 5:28 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 3Nephi 12:48 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who… Read more »
James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is notabout becoming gods. “In Psalm 82:6,judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture theSavior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges soauthorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exaltedtitle ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16;7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of Godtransmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency ofcalling human judges ‘gods,’ and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ whocalled Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but fortheir sin-darkened minds.” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). –Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30–34 to show thatwe can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian,perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle
tapirrider
8 years ago
“People have tried to explain away Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets with seemingly impossible explanations.” Nonsense. The only source that Chief Joseph had them and the things he allegedly said about them came from one person who wrote without sources for Chief Joseph’s alleged words to back up her claims. Mary Gindling’s post does not make it so. https://web.archive.org/web/20100131104033/http://www.helium.com/items/1636848-hisdtory-mystery-chief-josephs-cuneiform-tablet The Smithsonian Magazine of February, 1979 gives very plausible explanations. David, just because the tablet is authentic does not prove that Chief Joseph ever even owned it or had it in his possession. Edgar James Banks brought perhaps thousands of those items into the United States and sold them, long after the Battle of Bear Paw. The first time the tablet showed up was at West Point in a box of items labeled as Chief Joseph’s belongings. It is most likely and the best plausible explanation, that the tablet had been purchased in the early 20th Century from Banks and ended up with those other items, either before they were donated or the museum itself screwed up and misplaced and mislabled one of its own artifacts. When a rational person considers that your DNA claim is flawed and has studied the geometric patterns of American Indian art and beadwork and is familiar with the cultural significance and meanings of the patterns and their uses by the various different tribes, your entire claim collapses with the reality that the tablet was a common item in the early 20th century United States. It is… Read more »
Given the Native American cultural and DNA ties to Iran and the ancient Assyrian empire. I have no problem believing that the authentic cuneiform tablet was given to chief Joseph by his forefathers who are genetically tied to Iran.
David, there is no credible cultural ties of the Nez Percé to Iran and your DNA claims are not in agreement with science. And given that there is no 19th evidence via photograph or written document tying that tablet to Chief Joseph, all you have is a belief with no backing. Your faith is admirable but in this case it would seem misguided.
No David, your alleged cultural evidence is not credible. My position is not a matter of denial, nor is it a problem I have. The facts and evidence simply do not support your claims. I can back up my position with reliable, credible and reputable sources, while you must twist the findings and conclusions of scientists, archaeologists and scholars to fit your ideas. You have to disregard radiocarbon dates that disagree with your claims and ignore the improvements in the molecular clock measurement. It is a fact that you use known hoax artifacts and you have tried to attribute that valid artifact tablet from Mesopotamia to Chief Joseph when there is no evidence that he actually ever had it, and you do this in the face of all indications that it entered the United States in the early 1900s.
Denial is refusing to acknowledge credible evidence, refusing to accept that lack of evidence to support a claim indicates that one’s position might actually be wrong, disputing and disagreeing with the established consensus without valid or credible grounds to stand on, and allowing one’s own bias and desire for something to be true to interfere with accepting reality. My problem is just the opposite. I cannot allow myself to believe in fantasy, no matter how badly I might want to.
Well there you go again trying to white wash all the artifacts confirmed by modern archeology. You have your opinion I have mine the reader can make their own opinion.
David, I am not “trying to white wash” anything. My position is not an opinion, it is based on credible evidence and facts, in line with the established consensus of scientists, archaeologists, anthropologists, historians and educators. The claims that you present are in error and entirely unnecessary concerning the Book of Mormon. If Moroni 10:3–5 can’t establish the truth then no amount of distorted claims will either.
The Book of Mormon can definitely hold its own nobody can disprove it. Its ability to draw people to Christ is witnessed by millions from its first publication.
As far as my hobby there are plenty of scientist and anthropologist who have noticed that dna distribution and current theories are not lining up.
“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory. “ “If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich. “ “Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia. “ “Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.” “There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”
The Book of Mormon isn’t holding its own anymore though. Conversion rates are at an all time low, retention of new converts is extremely problematic and even long time members from multigenerational families are leaving. Estimates of active members world wide come in at only about 5 million. The majority of those active members are in Utah and surrounding regions. The outlook is dismal. Pseudo claims like yours, Meldrum’s, Wayne May’s, along with FairMormon’s divisive claims of two Cumorahs and Mesocamerican limited geography do not help. In fact they hurt because rational, educated, thinking individuals can quickly see that a hoax scripture can only be propped up with more distortions. This situation is sad but true. When I finally realized that the Book of Mormon was not what I had been taught and that the things I had taught in LDS classes through many years were not true or real, I was devastated. It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to face. David, if you want to help people, please stop distorting science and archaeology. Please stop presenting a fantasy interpretation of science.
Although the church is not growing as fast as it use to its still growing. In some areas of the world its growing at an accelerated pace. Some day whether in this life or the next you will come to realize truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
David, I know that the Book of Mormon is not true. My death will not make a work of fiction real for me in some pretend “next” life. And with that knowledge I also know that claims about American Indians based on the Book of Mormon are not only false, they are part of the racism that I now speak out against. Please stop putting that ridiculous label of Caucasian onto some of the most beautiful people in the world who need to be seen and understood for who they really are. Stop robbing American Indian’s contributions to the world by trying to claim that their ancestors were Caucasians. Their real ancestors deserve full credit, but your fantasy history doesn’t grant that to them. Its time for me to end my communication with you because quite honestly, your twists and distortions of science, archaeology and American Indian cultures makes my head hurt. If you come to a point where you want to live in the real world, shoot me an email.
“What does the Bible mean by ‘you are gods’ / ‘ye are gods’ in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?” Answer: Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8. This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28. The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even… Read more »
Tapir No I think you should take it up with scientist. “In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population” (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001) “To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 9707616292 “Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor” “The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1) “Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.” (The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001) “A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between… Read more »
The Book of Mormon isn’t holding its own anymore though. Conversion rates are at an all time low, retention of new converts is extremely problematic and even long time members from multigenerational families are leaving. Estimates of active members world wide come in at only about 5 million. The majority of those active members are in Utah and surrounding regions. The outlook is dismal. Pseudo claims like yours, Meldrum’s, Wayne May’s, along with FairMormon’s divisive claims of two Cumorahs and Mesocamerican limited geography do not help. In fact they hurt because rational, educated, thinking individuals can quickly see that a hoax scripture can only be propped up with more distortions. This situation is sad but true. When I finally realized that the Book of Mormon was not what I had been taught and that the things I had taught in LDS classes through many years were not true or real, I was devastated. It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to face. David, if you want to help people, please stop distorting science and archaeology. Please stop presenting a fantasy interpretation of science.
David, your use of the word Caucasian is outdated and racist. Even worse, the context you use it in is that ancient white people in America accomplished the greatest things but were destroyed by non-Caucasians. That theme is downright racist, scientifically false and morally condemnable. The LDS church is making efforts to water down and remove the racism of skin color. White now means pure, not skin color as explained in the LDS essays and even in official curriculum materials. But here comes Dave, parading out Caucasian and claiming that haplogroup x is a genetic marker for it, using it to identify white as a genetic distinctiveness as evidence for proof of the Book of Mormon. This garbage from Dave is sick and racist. And like all others who do this kind of thing, he resorts to the most extreme pseudo claims such as ancient giants mixing with people, use of known hoax artifacts and the concept that white is superior. There really is no place for this in the 21st century and most importantly, when addressing matters of American Indians. This wouldn’t stand for one minute if it was about Blacks, but when it comes to American Indians, one of the realities of racism against them is that things like this are still considered acceptable by the ignorant and uninformed and Dave just keeps right on doing it. Here are the sources Dave uses that refer to Haplogroup x as Caucasian: This article is from 1997 and mostly references older… Read more »
I will rephrase the work of scientist and geneticist so Tapir will not get offended. According to research by scientist and geneticist Native American Haplo group x a rare founding dna marker is a white dna marker. I think tapir will find that more palatable.
“The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlotsand publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dressand grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concernfor status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism…the haircutbecomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules byappearances.” Hugh Nibley Approaching Zion Vol 9
David, it isn’t about me getting offended or what I find palatable. I gave you plenty of information to read and explained how what you are doing is wrong. You don’t seem to get it so goodbye. I don’t have any more patience with your nonsense.
I’d like to add to this discussion. Maybe these genes are from the giants and that’s why they are most similar to …I don’t know what I’m supposed to say here… white people. I know from my dreams of my past lives that there were giants that were white with red hair and curly beards. Large lamp-like blue eyes and I was a very tall man and only came up to around his waist. He lived on an island in around Ireland. His habitation was a large, circular woodwork and it was at the highest point. It was some kind of festival time around March and he seemed to be the presiding dignitary. The island was teeming with the locals who were of medium height, blond hair and blue eyes. I was not from around there and seemed much more urban and sophisticated. I Was very tall, thin and had green eyes and black hair. We were talking about this demon I was hunting and that’s why I had landed there in my ship. As we were walking around we noticed a child alone picking flowers I saw his eyes light on her and I knew he wanted to eat her. I quickly said this little girl has lost her mother and took her away quickly to find her negligent mother. While I was away the demon landed and the giant betrayed me and my plans. I got back in time to see his ship sailing off and boarded my… Read more »
David, I’d love to hear more about your beliefs about carbon dating. You state that the X2AJ DNA has been dated through the Kennwick skeleton to a range from 3750 BC to 7000 BC. I understand that is a large range, however not even the youngest date in that range aligns with the Book of Mormon timeline. You state that “Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables.” That is an important variable, and there is solid evidence indicating the levels of carbon dioxide (C12 and C14) in the atmosphere back at least 8000 years. By measuring the C12 and C14 in very old dead trees and counting the thousands of rings of those trees, along with the thousands of rings of recently alive trees, scientists have verified that radiocarbon is accurate within at least that period. After about 20,000 years, there is so little carbon left in previously organic objects that radiocarbon dating is not reliable — the measurement is essentially indistinguishable from background radiation. I of course cannot force you to accept the solid science of radiocarbon dating, but if you’d like somewhere to start to understand it better, I found a fairly easy to read summary (compared to many of the other more technical and boring sources) refuting many of the common critiques of radiocarbon dating: https://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating/. Again, I would love to hear why exactly… Read more »
At this point in time I think the DNA evidence and cultural evidence is a more accurate representation of dating then what radio carbon dating is showing.
Ok, so to clarify, you are willfully disregarding strong evidence that discredits your hypothesis, just because you don’t like it? You are cherry-picking the evidence that coincidentally supports your position and ignoring all the evidence that doesn’t. Your hypothesis is consistently not credible because it is based on cherry-picking what supports your position rather than considering all the evidence for and against your position. You can cherry-pick evidence in any culture and make incredible claims. Symbols like your “Assyrian flag” are, in my opinion, the most likely coincidental matches. Take for example, the Jewish “Star of David” — it is supposed evidence that “The Jews and all modern religious traditions originated in ancient India” according to this article: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread812295/pg1. My point being that the use of similar symbols is not generally considered evidence of the same origin. I think we’ve all doodled something similar to the design on Chief Joseph’s medicine bag, just because it is a fairly simple pattern that can spontaneously occur, just like the Star of David symbol. Tying it back to the DNA evidence you present, all together it shows that there are a variety of migrations from other continents. That specifically refutes the Book of Mormon claims like 2 Nephi 1:6 and 9 that “there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord” and that “[Nephi’s family] may possess this land unto themselves”. The only DNA evidence that one of the many migrations may have been… Read more »
I have to go with the scientific evidence that is most accurate when they conflict with each other. As you stated there were multiple migrations to the Americas. But migrations do not fit the terminology very well. There were multiple trans ocean voyages. To include a Polynesian, Australian, and most definitely a middle eastern voyage all three of those dna markers are found in the Americas. The middle east marker found among North American Indians. The dna evidence is supportive of some Asian haplo groups making it to the Americas via ocean voyages. Certain Asian haplogroups are missing in key areas to show a migration across a barren ice bridge. Some of the Asian haplo groups being absent are in modern day and paleo Eskimos. The biggest argument that once was against the Book of Mormon in terms of DNA is now its biggest defense ironic I know. What the problem is dna evidence conflicts with the dating of Haplo Group x and other Haplo groups, unless of course cave men were sailing across the oceans. Another example and mystery is that there was a migration to Australia 40000 years ago. Last time I checked Australia was an island. I’m going with the dna evidence its supported by cultural evidence. Scientist need to make the variables with radio carbon dating match up with cultural and dna evidence. They changed the first dating of Kennwick man by 3450 years. That same number used in the opposite direction falls well within the Book of… Read more »
molly
In the almost 200 years the church has never stopped growing year after year. Rates of those growth have spiked then fallen but growth has always been constant and it continues to grow. Some countries have excellent growth rates.
Molly
The bible verses are self explanatory
David,
The same haplogroup X found in living Native Americans was present in Native American populations that lived 8,000 years ago. This fact demonstrates your claims are false.
If this is the same simon we have discussed this topic before so I will repost my reply. The radio carbon dating of haplo group x comes through kennwick man. When it comes to dating Kennewick man a skeleton with Haplogroup x dna he dated to 9000 BP (7000BC) after several attempts. Kennwick man has been dated to 3750BC, 6410BC, 4130BC, and 6130BC. Those are some wide ranges. In my unprofessional and biased opinion the scientist based on their own biases kept dating Kennewick man until they got the date they wanted. Radio carbon dating is based on knowing how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere at the time there dating the specimen to and other variables. I frankly do not trust their variables. I believe the old world (Hebrew) language and culture and technology found among the Hopewell Adena and Native Americans is a better indication of age. Not to mention there is no dna evidence for a Bering Ice Bridge crossing not only for Haplo group x but other Haplo groups. See technology and Hebrew culture ties that I believe show correct dating. http://www.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/c14memo.htm Technology https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑3/ Hebrew cultural ties https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑4/ I believe that the solutrean and Bering ice bridge for the populating of the America continent to be false. But the solutrean has more dna evidence for it than the Bering ice bridge theory. But your right the majority of scientist consider the solutrean theory to be unacceptable. Here are some previously posted comments about radio carbon dating and… Read more »
Did chief Joseph live in North America or Central America ? One wonders where the Book of Mormon people lived since we have Book of Mormon tours in Central America
There are two major theories of thought of where the Book of Mormon took place Central America and North America. You can take Book of Mormon tours not only in Central America but also North America.
You are right they are theories with no concrete facts
http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalmon.blogspot.com/2016/05/mormon-gods-were-fallen-exalted-saved.html
You are right they are theories with no concrete facts
Molly
Most people believe that confirmed Book of Mormon like artifacts such as breastplates headplates, woven cloth, metal weapons, necklaces, buttons, etc that are all confirmed Book of Mormon time period is all great evidence. The north American model has archeological sites and artifacts.
Artifact evidence is generally known as evidence believe it or not.
https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh‑3/
Mormons teach there god was a fallen, exalted, saved, finite man like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob So of course the Book of Mormon not true “The Gods who dwell in the Heaven…have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state.…they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.” (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23) Would you think fallen means sinner In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613–614,… Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone. “God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.) It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed. He has passed on, and is exalted far beyond what we can now comprehend. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 334 Doctrine and Covenant’s 132: 20: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from… Read more »
I don’t know if this is the right forum to discuss your comment but what the heck might as well. The bible teaches the same thing that man can be exalted and become like Heavenly Father. Look at Jesus Christ, he was once a mortal being who is now an exalted being. Psalms 82:6 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Christ quotes himself. John 10:34 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Christ was not perfect until after his mortal existence he learned from that which he suffered. After his resurrection only then was he perfect. Luke 13:32 Hebrew 5:8,9 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Christ tells the people to be perfect like Heavenly father he does not include himself. After his resurrection and perfection he tells the Nephites to be perfect like himself and Heavenly Father. Mathew 5:28 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 3Nephi 12:48 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who… Read more »
Molly,
I was just going by what the bible says. If you want to disagree with bible feel free.
James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is notabout becoming gods. “In Psalm 82:6,judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture theSavior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges soauthorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exaltedtitle ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16;7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of Godtransmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency ofcalling human judges ‘gods,’ and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ whocalled Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but fortheir sin-darkened minds.” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). –Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30–34 to show thatwe can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian,perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle
“People have tried to explain away Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets with seemingly impossible explanations.” Nonsense. The only source that Chief Joseph had them and the things he allegedly said about them came from one person who wrote without sources for Chief Joseph’s alleged words to back up her claims. Mary Gindling’s post does not make it so. https://web.archive.org/web/20100131104033/http://www.helium.com/items/1636848-hisdtory-mystery-chief-josephs-cuneiform-tablet The Smithsonian Magazine of February, 1979 gives very plausible explanations. David, just because the tablet is authentic does not prove that Chief Joseph ever even owned it or had it in his possession. Edgar James Banks brought perhaps thousands of those items into the United States and sold them, long after the Battle of Bear Paw. The first time the tablet showed up was at West Point in a box of items labeled as Chief Joseph’s belongings. It is most likely and the best plausible explanation, that the tablet had been purchased in the early 20th Century from Banks and ended up with those other items, either before they were donated or the museum itself screwed up and misplaced and mislabled one of its own artifacts. When a rational person considers that your DNA claim is flawed and has studied the geometric patterns of American Indian art and beadwork and is familiar with the cultural significance and meanings of the patterns and their uses by the various different tribes, your entire claim collapses with the reality that the tablet was a common item in the early 20th century United States. It is… Read more »
Given the Native American cultural and DNA ties to Iran and the ancient Assyrian empire. I have no problem believing that the authentic cuneiform tablet was given to chief Joseph by his forefathers who are genetically tied to Iran.
David, there is no credible cultural ties of the Nez Percé to Iran and your DNA claims are not in agreement with science. And given that there is no 19th evidence via photograph or written document tying that tablet to Chief Joseph, all you have is a belief with no backing. Your faith is admirable but in this case it would seem misguided.
When it comes to the cultural evidence, its quite obvious. If you are in denial that is your problem.
No David, your alleged cultural evidence is not credible. My position is not a matter of denial, nor is it a problem I have. The facts and evidence simply do not support your claims. I can back up my position with reliable, credible and reputable sources, while you must twist the findings and conclusions of scientists, archaeologists and scholars to fit your ideas. You have to disregard radiocarbon dates that disagree with your claims and ignore the improvements in the molecular clock measurement. It is a fact that you use known hoax artifacts and you have tried to attribute that valid artifact tablet from Mesopotamia to Chief Joseph when there is no evidence that he actually ever had it, and you do this in the face of all indications that it entered the United States in the early 1900s.
Denial is refusing to acknowledge credible evidence, refusing to accept that lack of evidence to support a claim indicates that one’s position might actually be wrong, disputing and disagreeing with the established consensus without valid or credible grounds to stand on, and allowing one’s own bias and desire for something to be true to interfere with accepting reality. My problem is just the opposite. I cannot allow myself to believe in fantasy, no matter how badly I might want to.
Well there you go again trying to white wash all the artifacts confirmed by modern archeology. You have your opinion I have mine the reader can make their own opinion.
David, I am not “trying to white wash” anything. My position is not an opinion, it is based on credible evidence and facts, in line with the established consensus of scientists, archaeologists, anthropologists, historians and educators. The claims that you present are in error and entirely unnecessary concerning the Book of Mormon. If Moroni 10:3–5 can’t establish the truth then no amount of distorted claims will either.
The Book of Mormon can definitely hold its own nobody can disprove it. Its ability to draw people to Christ is witnessed by millions from its first publication.
As far as my hobby there are plenty of scientist and anthropologist who have noticed that dna distribution and current theories are not lining up.
“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory. “
“If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich. “
“Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia. “
“Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.”
“There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/DNA-search-first-americans-links-amazon-indigenous-australians-180955976/?no-ist
The Book of Mormon isn’t holding its own anymore though. Conversion rates are at an all time low, retention of new converts is extremely problematic and even long time members from multigenerational families are leaving. Estimates of active members world wide come in at only about 5 million. The majority of those active members are in Utah and surrounding regions. The outlook is dismal. Pseudo claims like yours, Meldrum’s, Wayne May’s, along with FairMormon’s divisive claims of two Cumorahs and Mesocamerican limited geography do not help. In fact they hurt because rational, educated, thinking individuals can quickly see that a hoax scripture can only be propped up with more distortions. This situation is sad but true. When I finally realized that the Book of Mormon was not what I had been taught and that the things I had taught in LDS classes through many years were not true or real, I was devastated. It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to face. David, if you want to help people, please stop distorting science and archaeology. Please stop presenting a fantasy interpretation of science.
Tapir
Although the church is not growing as fast as it use to its still growing. In some areas of the world its growing at an accelerated pace. Some day whether in this life or the next you will come to realize truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
David, I know that the Book of Mormon is not true. My death will not make a work of fiction real for me in some pretend “next” life. And with that knowledge I also know that claims about American Indians based on the Book of Mormon are not only false, they are part of the racism that I now speak out against. Please stop putting that ridiculous label of Caucasian onto some of the most beautiful people in the world who need to be seen and understood for who they really are. Stop robbing American Indian’s contributions to the world by trying to claim that their ancestors were Caucasians. Their real ancestors deserve full credit, but your fantasy history doesn’t grant that to them. Its time for me to end my communication with you because quite honestly, your twists and distortions of science, archaeology and American Indian cultures makes my head hurt. If you come to a point where you want to live in the real world, shoot me an email.
“What does the Bible mean by ‘you are gods’ / ‘ye are gods’ in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?” Answer: Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8. This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28. The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even… Read more »
The Book of Mormon completely contradicts Mormonismhttp://mmilly97.wordpress.com/
http://mmilly97.wordpress.com/
Tapir
Its scientist saying that Native American Haplo group x is Caucasian you need to take that up with geneticist not me.
David, I’m taking it up with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKB8hXYod2w
Tapir No I think you should take it up with scientist. “In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population” (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001) “To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 9707616292 “Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor” “The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1) “Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.” (The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001) “A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between… Read more »
The Book of Mormon isn’t holding its own anymore though. Conversion rates are at an all time low, retention of new converts is extremely problematic and even long time members from multigenerational families are leaving. Estimates of active members world wide come in at only about 5 million. The majority of those active members are in Utah and surrounding regions. The outlook is dismal. Pseudo claims like yours, Meldrum’s, Wayne May’s, along with FairMormon’s divisive claims of two Cumorahs and Mesocamerican limited geography do not help. In fact they hurt because rational, educated, thinking individuals can quickly see that a hoax scripture can only be propped up with more distortions. This situation is sad but true. When I finally realized that the Book of Mormon was not what I had been taught and that the things I had taught in LDS classes through many years were not true or real, I was devastated. It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to face. David, if you want to help people, please stop distorting science and archaeology. Please stop presenting a fantasy interpretation of science.
David, your use of the word Caucasian is outdated and racist. Even worse, the context you use it in is that ancient white people in America accomplished the greatest things but were destroyed by non-Caucasians. That theme is downright racist, scientifically false and morally condemnable. The LDS church is making efforts to water down and remove the racism of skin color. White now means pure, not skin color as explained in the LDS essays and even in official curriculum materials. But here comes Dave, parading out Caucasian and claiming that haplogroup x is a genetic marker for it, using it to identify white as a genetic distinctiveness as evidence for proof of the Book of Mormon. This garbage from Dave is sick and racist. And like all others who do this kind of thing, he resorts to the most extreme pseudo claims such as ancient giants mixing with people, use of known hoax artifacts and the concept that white is superior. There really is no place for this in the 21st century and most importantly, when addressing matters of American Indians. This wouldn’t stand for one minute if it was about Blacks, but when it comes to American Indians, one of the realities of racism against them is that things like this are still considered acceptable by the ignorant and uninformed and Dave just keeps right on doing it. Here are the sources Dave uses that refer to Haplogroup x as Caucasian: This article is from 1997 and mostly references older… Read more »
I will rephrase the work of scientist and geneticist so Tapir will not get offended. According to research by scientist and geneticist Native American Haplo group x a rare founding dna marker is a white dna marker. I think tapir will find that more palatable.
“The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlotsand publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dressand grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concernfor status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism…the haircutbecomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules byappearances.” Hugh Nibley Approaching Zion Vol 9
David, it isn’t about me getting offended or what I find palatable. I gave you plenty of information to read and explained how what you are doing is wrong. You don’t seem to get it so goodbye. I don’t have any more patience with your nonsense.
Tapir
I have enjoyed our discussions I wish you the best
Its a great quote by Hugh Nibley quoting the master. He could not be more right.